Raise Taxes, Fire up the Draft.

[DEVIL]

Gents, 

As I sit here from my whiskey fueled perch, pondering the state of the nation, and pissed that the pats didn't lose, I'd like to ask your opinion. What if someone was to run for office on the following premise, accountability. 

"You all voted in to office people who got this business, our government and country, into mass debt, and continued war spending, monetary, and physical." (it's cumbersome wording, whatever, you get it, human cost) Those elected representatives (for the most part) have not served, their children do not serve, their peers do not serve, they do not know the cost of war. In order to get our country to be a solvent business, and our representatives to know what it costs, we're raising taxes, and starting a draft"

-------------------------------

Point being Congress, POTUS, the cabinet, do not know what war costs. We all do. The majority of this country does not. They haven't had to pay for what their representatives are voting for, and their representatives definitely haven't felt the pressure of the consequences of their actions. Those officials absolutely haven't had consequences regarding their words, whether in public, twitter, whatever. If our leaders are affecting the route of this country, they should have some skin in the game, not just ratings. 

 

Just interested. Accountability. That's it. 

 

PS: If you're going to pick apart any minutiae of the above, don't waste your time. Think big picture. 

 

[matmacwc]

You think morale is bad in the military now?  And no, I don't think many people would vote for your proposal.

[Homestar]

The all-volunteer military has resulted in never-ending conflict.

The price of war is low.  The eternal trickle of military involvement feeds the military-industrial complex, which is chairman-ed by retired generals mostly who know best how to manipulate the machine into industrial profit.

The country must devise some form of civic service.  Otherwise we will continue to have elected leaders send our volunteer men and women to die in fights where the largest military force in the world has no business fighting.

[mcbush]

Agree with all of the above, but what's the incentive for Joe Plummer to vote for this kind of proposal? It's in the best interest, perceived or actual, of 99% of this country to maintain the status quo.

[HeloDude]

So people on here are advocating for slavery and more theft...great.

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

So people on here are advocating for slavery and more theft...great.

How do you figure?  I'd say national service is on a different plane than slavery, but what do I know?

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

So people on here are advocating for slavery and more theft...great.

Comparing a public service job to slavery is a little over the top, don't you think?  

[Vertigo]

24 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Comparing a public service job to slavery is a little over the top, don't you think?  

Forced public service under the threat of what? Prison? I mean there would have be to some form of punishment for not complying right? What do you call forcing someone to do a job they didn't agree to do or else you'll throw them in jail? 

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, Vertigo said:

What do you call forcing someone to do a job they didn't agree to do or else you'll throw them in jail? 

Bake a cake for a same sex couple.

[gearhog]

2 hours ago, Vertigo said:

Forced public service under the threat of what? Prison? I mean there would have be to some form of punishment for not complying right? What do you call forcing someone to do a job they didn't agree to do or else you'll throw them in jail? 

what do you call forcing someone to pay money? theft or taxes?

you're playing word games. labor or money for the common good isn't the same thing as slavery and theft.

Edited January 22, 2018 by torqued

[brickhistory]

5 hours ago, Vertigo said:

Forced public service under the threat of what? Prison? I mean there would have be to some form of punishment for not complying right? What do you call forcing someone to do a job they didn't agree to do or else you'll throw them in jail? 

Obamacare?

 

I either buy it or pay a tax.  I refuse and my stuff is confiscated.  I refuse to have my stuff confiscated and I go to jail.

Supreme Court said it's all good...

[Orbit]

21 hours ago, DEVIL said:

Point being Congress, POTUS, the cabinet, do not know what war costs. 

 

[mcbush]

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Forced public service under the threat of what? Prison? I mean there would have be to some form of punishment for not complying right? What do you call forcing someone to do a job they didn't agree to do or else you'll throw them in jail? 

Is it only slavery to you if they go to prison or for any negative reprisal? A forfeiture of voting rights for non-compliance with the draft is another way without inundating the prison system. I’m not advocating for any of it, just playing Devil’s advocate. Pun intended.

Also, Devil, would you recommend implementing a selective draft or mandatory service for all? Significant difference.

I don’t believe someone running on that platform would win, maybe. But it could very likely get the conversation started about the issues at hand.

My biggest gripe with the platform is that once taxes are raised they will likely never recede, even if the increase is slated to pay down the cost of war. A temporary tax increase coupled with a reduction in spending sounds more appealing to me.

Just my $.02.

[Guest]

A temporary tax increase coupled with a reduction in spending sounds more appealing to me.

Just my $.02.

I don’t think we’ll ever see a tax increase coupled with a reduction in spending. The “haves” won’t want the tax increase, while the “have-nots” won’t stand for entitlement reduction. There isn’t a large enough segment of the population that is willing to take a personal hit for the greater good for such a thing to pass.

I think what we’re seeing now, with tax cuts that will hopefully grow the economy and produce a net increase in tax revenue, coupled with entitlement reform (both of which the “haves” can get behind), is the best we can hope for.

[magnetfreezer]

16 minutes ago, AlphaMikeFoxtrot said:

 

Is it only slavery to you if they go to prison or for any negative reprisal? A forfeiture of voting rights for non-compliance with the draft is another way without inundating the prison system. I’m not advocating for any of it, just playing Devil’s advocate. Pun intended.
 

 

 

Service guarantees citizenship...

 

[Clark Griswold]

12 hours ago, Vertigo said:

What do you call forcing someone to do a job they didn't agree to do or else you'll throw them in jail? 

Duty to your country.

It's not demeaning or dehumanizing, it is service your country is calling upon from its citizenry.  This is a two way street, nations serve their citizens and citizens serve their nation, voluntarily or when called on.  We've lost that in recent decades and have been draining the fuel tank of national cultural virtue without putting anything back in, it's time to top off the tank.

I know that it (mandatory service) has never been perfect, the wealthy and connected sometimes got deferments or preferential postings thru unscrupulous actions but that doesn't mean that concept of mandatory service, specifically military service, was not overall beneficial to the country, directly in acquired military manpower required or indirectly in other ways (character development, intermixing of normally disparate groups, a unifying experience shared by generations, etc...).

I see your point but mandatory military service is not forcing someone to perform economic activity from which someone else will profit (that's slavery) this is service to the nation.  

Honestly, I don't think we (the military) really need it and it may not have the effect some of us would hope it would have on the youth impressed into service but I would not dismiss it out of hand.

[HeloDude]

Scary and sad that so many of you think this way...the same type of thinking that supported FDR imprisoning tens of thousands of Americans because of their ethnic background.  You know, for the "greater good".  

By the way, if not enough able people are willing to voluntarily fight for our nation then it's obviously not worth defending.

[snoopyeast]

There's some pretty good arguments against the draft/conscription out there.   Comparing it to Japanese internment is definitely not one of them.

[gearhog]

29 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

By the way, if not enough able people are willing to voluntarily fight for our nation then it's obviously not worth defending.

false.

the nation exists because we have a long history of conscription, including the war which founded it.

 

[Vertigo]

Than you all for making my point for me. You're pissed about being forced to pay taxes, forced to pay for health insurance, but you're ok with forced labor.

 

9 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Duty to your country.

 

Isn't listed anywhere in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

The word Liberty is. Maybe you should look it up in the dictionary.

[gearhog]

just cry "LIBERTY!" when you get stop-lossed. everything should be fine

 

[Majestik Møøse]

Mandatory service works in Israel and Finland, but we're different. It's a leftover requirement for them because they needed it for survival in the 20th Century. It'd be really hard for them to institute it now. The vast majority of a population would have see a dire need for mandatory service for it to become law, so effectively it wouldn't be any different from volunteering anyway.

[Clark Griswold]

Than you all for making my point for me. You're pissed about being forced to pay taxes, forced to pay for health insurance, but you're ok with forced labor. 

 

Isn't listed anywhere in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

 

The word Liberty is. Maybe you should look it up in the dictionary.

 

 

So you’re saying if something is not specifically mentioned / allowed or prohibited by the Constitution that is its basis for policy/law?

 

That’s not a strict constructionist interpretation but an inflexible one

 

Liberty is great but it only exists because of security & vigilance which are fires that must be constantly tended

 

[Vertigo]

1 minute ago, Clark Griswold said:

 

So you’re saying if something is not specifically mentioned / allowed / prohibited by the Constitution that it is not allowed ?

That’s not a strict constructionist interpretation but an inflexible one

Liberty is great but it only exists because of security & vigilance which are fired that must be constantly tended

 

What I'm saying is forced labor is the exact OPPOSITE of liberty, which is the principle on which this nation was founded. 

That fire is being constantly tended by our all volunteer force. If we have the need for a larger force, then we must offer better incentives for people to join or stay in. Do you not think you'd be degrading our security and vigilance by forcing people to join the military against their will? How much resentment towards the government would some of these people start to harbor? How many would then turn to extremism?

We have enough issues with discipline of those that voluntarily joined, imagine how much time we'd be wasting having to manage those that do not want to be in.