Raise Taxes, Fire up the Draft.

[gearhog]

4 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

Funny how we've managed to stay free since 1783 with an all volunteer force. Do you HONESTLY believe that without draftees in WWII we would have lost that war? 

Feel free to argue with our founding fathers whether or not Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are God given rights or if you should have to "earn" it first by forced labor. What's the point of fighting for those principles if we're just going to ignore them anyways "for the greater good"? They just become hollow catchphrases with no real meaning. Either we're a nation founded on the ideal that we each make our own way through life with the freedom to decide what that path is, or we're an authoritarian nation in which you can only be free if you first sacrifice your free will to the government.

"If I abide by a law I disagree with, I accept it." Patently false. There are a few laws I don't agree with, but that the penalty for disobeying is too great to risk non-compliance. That doesn't mean I accept that law, it just means I don't want to go to prison or pay a steep fine. So instead I lobby, or support groups that lobby, to change these laws. 

sorry, i don't understand your first statement. it seems sarcastic and poorly informed. conscription was used in the revolution, civil war, WWI, WWII, korea, and vietnam. 

i don't think you read my earlier thoughts on "forced labor". i'll address them again if you are unsatisfied, but i don't want to reiterate.

if i see you stop your car at a stop sign, i have no idea if you agree or disagree with the law, or are simply stopping out of fear. all i know is that you complied with the law, and that's really all that matters. if you manage to have the sign removed in the future by appealing to reason and logic and not emotion, i think that's terrific, too.

[Vertigo]

13 minutes ago, torqued said:

sorry, i don't understand your first statement. it seems sarcastic and poorly informed. conscription was used in the revolution, civil war, WWI, WWII, korea, and vietnam. 

Previous wrongs doesn't make it right. I mentioned WWII because you had brought it up earlier in regards to draftees. 

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, Vertigo said:

Previous wrongs doesn't make it right. I mentioned WWII because you had brought it up earlier in regards to draftees. 

Do you ever accept there might be a time and a place?  I can, but it better be end of the USA big.

        -Just as a side bar.

[gearhog]

conscription in the US revolution was wrong? how paradoxical.

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, torqued said:

conscription in the US revolution was wrong? how paradoxical.

Yes--conscription is always wrong.  Unless you're also for stop ops sing all pilots and paying them half of what they earn now...

[FourFans]

13 hours ago, Vertigo said:

That doesn't mean I accept that law, it just means I don't want to go to prison or pay a steep fine.

So you stand against the law, but not enough to suffer discomfort (whatever consequence is currently tied that law) to see it repealed.  Dr. King has some words of wisdom in that arena.  

Stating the specific law you're fighting against would make this a much more productive discussion as the root morality of that law should be the topic of debate.  Clearly you think the law immoral (from your perspective) and wish it repealed, yet elected officials (past or present) disagree.  Is that on the mark?

P.S. In my opinion, your statement on "inalienable rights" and how we are born into those rights is the modern entitlement generation's interpretation of a concept our founding father's laid down...not the founding father's original interpretation.  The father's meant it from a core of duty and responsibility, "millennials" (the attitude, not the birthdate) mean it as their birthright, not something to be earned and upheld.  They want to fight FROM that right, not FOR it.  Our modern interpretation of those "inalienable rights" is what will bring America to its knees because it breeds entitlement, not responsibility.

P.P.S. I think the draft should only exist during times of crisis and absolute need (i.e. not now).  Draftees would universally lower our fighting edge.  I agree that if the whole nation feels the pain of the conflict and has to pay the price (WWII) the quality of the nation improves.  What that price is forced on them (Vietnam), resentment takes deep root and nothing good comes from it. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by FourFans130
Edit: insert on-topic opinion

[pawnman]

On 1/23/2018 at 7:47 PM, HeloDude said:

Hence the theft piece...thank you for making my point.

It's also interesting to think that our allies are building countries on slave labor, if this is the definition of it.  Germany has mandatory service, and so does Israel.  Not just a draft where you have a chance of going into the military - a 100% guarantee that you will serve in the military when you become an adult.

[HeloDude]

26 minutes ago, pawnman said:

It's also interesting to think that our allies are building countries on slave labor, if this is the definition of it.  Germany has mandatory service, and so does Israel.  Not just a draft where you have a chance of going into the military - a 100% guarantee that you will serve in the military when you become an adult.

Hmmm, forcing a person to do something they don't want to do and not due to anything negative the person did and also  irrelevant of compensation.  Sounds like slavery to me...

[Clark Griswold]

11 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Hmmm, forcing a person to do something they don't want to do and not due to anything negative the person did and also  irrelevant of compensation.  Sounds like slavery to me...

Then I enslave my children on a daily basis. 

Just being a cheeky bastard but the libertarians in this discussion are taking things too an extreme.  Liberty and Personal Freedom / Choice are not infinite and the price to realize them at any level is that as individuals we sacrifice a small amount of our own allotment to allow the group to experience it as a whole.  Like paying taxes, we each pay some so that we all have something(s) we all need.

I think @Vertigo mentioned earlier that your freedom ends when it intrudes on the freedom of another, I would caveat that with unreasonably intrudes on the freedom of another.  The greater point to take away from that astute statement (Vertigo's not mine) is that all principles, values and other human concepts are subject to limitations of realization in the real world, that is they can never be fully realized only approximated to a reasonable extent.

To have a place on this Earth where your God given rights can be realized requires people who organize together as a tribe / nation willing to use force and violence to keep other groups of humans from imposing their will, stealing your resources and/or killing / displacing your group.  Paradoxically, in order to do this, the individuals of that group will have to subordinate some of their freedoms / personal choices in order for the group to realize the maximum amount of liberty / personal choice, not fully but as close to fully as conditions / resources will allow.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Clark Griswold

[HeloDude]

Sorry dude, but I'll never support conscription.  If not enough able bodies are not voluntarily willing to stand up and fight for a country then the country's is not simply worth fighting for...

Edited January 27, 2018 by HeloDude

[magnetfreezer]

17 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Sorry dude, but I'll never support constipation. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by magnetfreezer

[HeloDude]

5 minutes ago, magnetfreezer said:

Haha--yes, I'll never support conscription...or constipation.

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Sorry dude, but I'll never support conscription.  If not enough able bodies are not voluntarily willing to stand up and fight for a country then the country's is not simply worth fighting for...

would you say that any college age starbucks barista is equally as capable as you are, through life experiences and education, to accurately determine the worth of this country?

[Clark Griswold]

Sorry dude, but I'll never support conscription.  If not enough able bodies are not voluntarily willing to stand up and fight for a country then the country's is not simply worth fighting for...

Fair enough and I am not for using conscription willy nilly just for keeping it legal and ready if required

Referring to your idea that if the people will not willingly fight in numbers sufficient to ensure their sovereignty then their nation is not worth fighting for perhaps but if they are not willing to fight I am thinking that it is more accurate that they are not worthy of liberty

[pawnman]

On 1/26/2018 at 7:25 AM, HeloDude said:

Hmmm, forcing a person to do something they don't want to do and not due to anything negative the person did and also  irrelevant of compensation.  Sounds like slavery to me...

I volunteered to join the Air Force to fly airplanes. Is it slavery when I have to write a memo or sweep a floor?

[BFM this]

Just now, pawnman said:

I volunteered to join the Air Force to fly airplanes. Is it slavery when I have to write a memo or sweep a floor?

That's the current prevailing sentiment.

[Prosuper]

1 hour ago, BFM this said:

That's the current prevailing sentiment.

Back in the late 90's we were using enlisted Aircrew to help wash E-3's, now that was some world class bitching.

[BFM this]

4 minutes ago, Prosuper said:

Back in the late 90's we were using enlisted Aircrew to help wash E-3's, now that was some world class bitching.

E-3's got sponge baths?  

90's was weird.

[Prosuper]

20 minutes ago, BFM this said:

E-3's got sponge baths?  

90's was weird.

When they got back from the desert it usually took 12 hours of hard scrubbing to get them clean. Don't know what the standard is now?

[Homestar]

I’d hate to see what the O-3s got... :-D

[HeloDude]

22 hours ago, torqued said:

would you say that any college age starbucks barista is equally as capable as you are, through life experiences and education, to accurately determine the worth of this country?

I'm pretty sure the Rights/benefits I have from being a citizen in this country is no more/no less than that of an American citizen who works at Starbucks, so yes, our opinion on the worth of this country and what we're willing to do/not do is 100% the same...

[HeloDude]

18 hours ago, pawnman said:

I volunteered to join the Air Force to fly airplanes. Is it slavery when I have to write a memo or sweep a floor?

Haha--you never volunteered to fly airplanes.  And if you thought you did, you might want to look at your oath/what you signed a little closer...

And since when do volunteer and slavery go together?

[Duck]

...
And since when do volunteer and slavery go together?

Around the 8 year mark.

[Prozac]

To the original sentiment of this thread: The American public is FAR to disconnected from their military and the foreign policy that results in its (over) use. Some sort of mandatory national service would go a long way toward rectifying that situation for all of the reasons discussed in previous posts. Personally, I think it’s a good idea but the implementation is potentially fraught with problems. Anyone have a better idea for re-acquainting the average American with the costs and consequences of the wars his country is currently waging?  Love to hear it. 

To the Libertarians here, I ask you this: Do you use the interstate? Hospitals? Accept police protection?  Enjoy relatively affordable gasoline? Send your kids to public schools (or at least accept the fact that universal literacy is probably a good thing)?  I could go on but you get the point. There is a cost to living in a civilized society. Most of us recognize that fact even if we may disagree vehemently on how much/little that cost should be or on whom the costs should fall. Mandatory national service falls somewhere on that spectrum of argument. It seems though, that there are a few “true believers” here taking the black & white argument. I have a question for you. Do you really think our society would be a better place if you were literally asked to pay nothing for your inalienable rights?

[jazzdude]

To the original sentiment of this thread: The American public is FAR to disconnected from their military and the foreign policy that results in its (over) use. Some sort of mandatory national service would go a long way toward rectifying that situation for all of the reasons discussed in previous posts. Personally, I think it’s a good idea but the implementation is potentially fraught with problems. Anyone have a better idea for re-acquainting the average American with the costs and consequences of the wars his country is currently waging?  Love to hear it. 

Actually funding the war and overseas contingencies by raising taxes, whether individual, corporate, or both. This avoids the problems with mandatory service or a draft, while making everyone have some ownership of what our country is doing overseas (through their pocketbook). Don't like paying more taxes? Well, better start writing your congressman or senator and let them know that you don't believe what we are doing is worth the cost. What if the president exercises his power to do short term engagements? Well, he'd better start talking to congress to fund the long term sustainment of the fight.

Added benefit, if OCO funding wasn't bottomless, maybe we won't have stupid deployments updating PowerPoints and making coffee.