Su-25 Down in Syria

[raimius]

On 2/7/2018 at 1:04 AM, Breckey said:

I wish that the GAU-5 SBR ASDW the F-15Es have in their seat kits are distributed more to the masses. A full size M4 in a cramped H-60 cockpit will probably be useless for anything other than a PL or forced landing, especially if the aircraft rolls. In the same vein, why are we still using the full size M9 as a sidearm when there isnt a lot of best real estate (especially when carrying M4 mags)? The Navy has all their aircrew use the M11, why does the AF and Army still use an M9?

MAJCOMs didn't see the cost/benefit ratio as good enough.  To be honest, the GAU-5 SBR won't have very good terminal performance with M855. They had to cut the barrel too short, and disassemble the thing anyway.  Getting a small enough SBR, with enough range, and terminal performance is a tall order.  I wish we could find a MP5K with M4 ballistics!

If you got the money, a SBR in .300blk gets a lot closer to what you are looking for.  I think SIG made the Rattler with that in mind.

[Lawman]

MAJCOMs didn't see the cost/benefit ratio as good enough.  To be honest, the GAU-5 SBR won't have very good terminal performance with M855. They had to cut the barrel too short, and disassemble the thing anyway.  Getting a small enough SBR, with enough range, and terminal performance is a tall order.  I wish we could find a MP5K with M4 ballistics!

If you got the money, a SBR in .300blk gets a lot closer to what you are looking for.  I think SIG made the Rattler with that in mind.

I think you guys are really misunderstanding the realities of a gun fight.

Maneuver (IE dudes coming to roll you up) is countered by a volume of fire, not really accuracy or range. We exchange literal thousands of rounds in a simple meeting encounter with small 2-3 man shooter groups on the ground. And we kill little/nothing most of the time because the reality is you rarely if ever hit what you’re aiming at whether it’s aimed well or aimed poorly. That’s why a handgun and a couple mags is a joke. About all the resistance you can be expected to put up with that is suitable for some farmer stumbling on your RAZ and trying to take you to the local authorities because he found out you killed one of his chickens. Look back at Vietnam and Desert Storm, name me any incident where a crew member successfully fought it out on the ground alone and unafraid with a handgun.

You need noise, you need ammo, and you need persistence of creating a feeling of “I’d better be F’ing worth it to you Hadj!” Because they will overwhelm you. That is going to happen whether you’re down there with a 9mm, a M4, or a 240B. The only difference is the motivation for them to wait a few more minutes that is provided by a persistent defense.

Durant had an MP5K, 4 mags, 2 Delta Snipers with full combat load, and all the left over mags and ammo scattered around the wreckage of that Blackhawk.... all that did was buy them minutes. Even if the DC powered GAU had been working, eventually the horde is gonna come get you.

[Breckey]

6 hours ago, raimius said:

MAJCOMs didn't see the cost/benefit ratio as good enough.  To be honest, the GAU-5 SBR won't have very good terminal performance with M855. They had to cut the barrel too short, and disassemble the thing anyway.  Getting a small enough SBR, with enough range, and terminal performance is a tall order.  I wish we could find a MP5K with M4 ballistics!

If you got the money, a SBR in .300blk gets a lot closer to what you are looking for.  I think SIG made the Rattler with that in mind.

GA uses Mk318 in their SBRs and they seem happy with it.

We have ACOGs on our M4s yet nobody can hit the broad side of a E Silhouette at 200m because CATM doesn’t need have the range/experience/knowledge to properly sight them in and be proficent with them. I only found one instance in the last 30 years where an Rescue helo went down IIn combat without the wingman ready to spin for the self-SAR. I think the need to reach out and touch a dude is less important than volume of fire and BZO accuracy with a red dot. We’re not that special that we need a one-off caliber and weapon.

[ATIS]

8 hours ago, Lawman said:

 

Maneuver (IE dudes coming to roll you up) is countered by a volume of fire, not really accuracy or range.

You need noise, you need ammo, and you need persistence of creating a feeling of “I’d better be F’ing worth it to you Hadj!” Because they will overwhelm you. That is going to happen whether you’re down there with a 9mm, a M4, or a 240B. The only difference is the motivation for them to wait a few more minutes that is provided by a persistent defense.

Durant had an MP5K, 4 mags, 2 Delta Snipers with full combat load, and all the left over mags and ammo scattered around the wreckage of that Blackhawk.... all that did was buy them minutes. Even if the DC powered GAU had been working, eventually the horde is gonna come get you.


 

Very similar discussion I had with a very experienced (T1) operator, when I was a stupid 04 in the early U-28 days (2006-ish) asking for advice on my kit setup.  I carried way more ammo than needed, but he instructed me to keep 2 x 30rnd clips off to the side.  If I ever went down and survived, and folks were coming my way...use those clips and put them downrange with consistent fire.  Make them aware you are armed and have ammo, it sets the tone. 

Regardless, unless the pick up was quick...I expected to be a MORT after the "bang" ran out. 

ATIS

[ClearedHot]

I of course had my dopey M9 but I also flew with a compressed M4, made a leg strap so I could strap it to my side in the unlikely event I was actually able to get out of a flaming gunship.  I also carried a handful of 30 round magazines and a few other trinkets that would make sure I exceeded the capacity of the chute.  At least I would be harder to hit moving that fast towards the ground.

[Day Man]

1 hour ago, ATIS said:

I carried way more ammo than needed, but he instructed me to keep 2 x 30rnd clips off to the side.  If I ever went down and survived, and folks were coming my way...use those clips and put them downrange with consistent fire. 

ATIS

were you issued a Garand? (just busting balls)

[ATIS]

43 minutes ago, Day Man said:

were you issued a Garand? (just busting balls)

I even wore them on a fashionable bandolier. 

I grew up with and own 5 Garands, I call everything a clip.  I read "mags/magazines", well some of them I do. 

[Lawman]

Very similar discussion I had with a very experienced (T1) operator, when I was a stupid 04 in the early U-28 days (2006-ish) asking for advice on my kit setup.  I carried way more ammo than needed, but he instructed me to keep 2 x 30rnd clips off to the side.  If I ever went down and survived, and folks were coming my way...use those clips and put them downrange with consistent fire.  Make them aware you are armed and have ammo, it sets the tone. 

Regardless, unless the pick up was quick...I expected to be a MORT after the "bang" ran out. 

ATIS

 

It’s the basic principle of fire superiority.

 

In the fire-team/squad level fight it’s falling heavily on an automatic weapon guy with a belt fed weapon. That guy is going to empty that first belt almost as the first seconds of the fight. Unfortunate to the nature of aircrew w don’t have that option. Though in the lift world it’s one of the reasons while the 240 lacks the suppression of the GAU or the .50, you can carry the stock group for it and switch from a mounted machine gun into a hand held machine gun which is what our 60/47 guys do as a contingency for the worst.

 

As you said, “set the tone,” and the tone needs to be something along the lines of “I have and will use the means to make you bleed.”

 

[raimius]

If someone can sell the idea better than I could, more power to you.  The M9 and 2-3 mags is almost a joke, I agree.
TTPs, proficiency, and SERE tactics are issues, as well.  Obviously, this is not the place to detail them.

In the end, it comes down to money.  I wish I had a better argument for the higher ups to fork out money for guns, ammo, and training.  The desired specs put out by the Strike Eagle guys were not met by anything currently sitting in the inventory in quantity.  The GAU-5 is a half-answer for what they wanted, but big AF doesn't care about anything under 20mm...so...

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by raimius

[Breckey]

The difference is that the GAU-5/M11 are both currently sitting in the inventory and can be a quick fix. The brief I saw had a conversion price of less that $800 for the new barrel, rail, and BUIS. We spend more than that the latest gucci rain gear. Throw an M68 that's LRS probably has laying around and you have a SBR that will be as effective as anything we currently have (for 95% of the shooters) and be easier to egress with. If the SPO would ever approve those rifle racks used by the Army, we'd really be in business.

[Lawman]

The difference is that the GAU-5/M11 are both currently sitting in the inventory and can be a quick fix. The brief I saw had a conversion price of less that $800 for the new barrel, rail, and BUIS. We spend more than that the latest gucci rain gear. Throw an M68 that's LRS probably has laying around and you have a SBR that will be as effective as anything we currently have (for 95% of the shooters) and be easier to egress with. If the SPO would ever approve those rifle racks used by the Army, we'd really be in business.

I think you guys would be better leaning on them to get you the 5th CMWS sensor but that’s just me.

[Breckey]

They’ll never approve that. It’s just another thing to break off in a brownout landing. The Block 162 mods are finally being installed giving us the best technology of 2008 but we’ve got DAIRCM on the way so we’ve got that...

[Lawman]

They’ll never approve that. It’s just another thing to break off in a brownout landing. The Block 162 mods are finally being installed giving us the best technology of 2008 but we’ve got DAIRCM on the way so we’ve got that...

 

The hell are you doing on landing? It’s flush with the floor of the aircraft...

 

Getting to hang out with your guys in Al Assad this last time over was eye opening how neither services PM has the complete picture.

 

It’s like can we get them to talk to each other. I’ll trade you guys all the development we’ve made with DONlAIRCM/CIRCM in hostile fire queuing and IR protection if we can get the newest digital versions of APR-39 and any kind of progress on EW/RF stuff (which the Army has ignore since 1992).

[raimius]

6 hours ago, Breckey said:

The difference is that the GAU-5/M11 are both currently sitting in the inventory and can be a quick fix. The brief I saw had a conversion price of less that $800 for the new barrel, rail, and BUIS. We spend more than that the latest gucci rain gear. Throw an M68 that's LRS probably has laying around and you have a SBR that will be as effective as anything we currently have (for 95% of the shooters) and be easier to egress with. If the SPO would ever approve those rifle racks used by the Army, we'd really be in business.

Well, crap, that's different info than I had.
All I saw was "cut the barrel at the FSB, and take the thing apart to fit in the seat kit."

[Breckey]

Well, crap, that's different info than I had.
All I saw was "cut the barrel at the FSB, and take the thing apart to fit in the seat kit."

That was the original plan but they upgraded it to a flat top receiver, free float 10.5 barrel with a flash hider, and a 9 inch rail. It also has some weird folding pistol grip but that isn't needed when it's not in a seat kit.

[Hodor]

May as well make sure your SMAs fly with the butterfy grip and get ready to break that can up into neat 100 rd links. 

 

I always wanted to fly with one of the old Mossbergs we had in the armory but I never got to qual with em.