Raptor Gear Up at Fallon?

[HossHarris]

10 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

That’s a total cop out and bull shit. 

Here you go, expert. 

Closest thing I could find. Looks like a non-Airshow, non-ab, everyday normal raptor takeoff. 

8 seconds from brake release to nosewheel lift off. 

If you, a perfectly capable aviator evidently, made a 1 second error ... how many knots do you think that would be?  

Best case, light jet and linear acceleration, a 1 second error is 15 knots. Takeoff acceleration isn’t linear. 

So tell me again about the magnitude of the fuckup....

[Champ Kind]

isn’t done by committee with time for discussion and deep meaningful introspection between V1 and VR

No dog in this internet slap fight, but this made me laugh. Thanks for that!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[JeremiahWeed]

8 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

Closest thing I could find. Looks like a non-Airshow, non-ab, everyday normal raptor takeoff. 

8 seconds from brake release to nosewheel lift off. 

If you, a perfectly capable aviator evidently, made a 1 second error ... how many knots do you think that would be?  

Best case, light jet and linear acceleration, a 1 second error is 15 knots. Takeoff acceleration isn’t linear.

I think you make a pretty valid point.  Sure does look like those burners are cooking by the time he goes by the camera.  Are you saying he went full grunt after gear up?

[HossHarris]

6 minutes ago, JeremiahWeed said:

I think you make a pretty valid point.  Sure does look like those burners are cooking by the time he goes by the camera.  Are you saying he went full grunt after gear up?

Unknown. 

And I don’t know off the top of my cranium if the mishap was AB or mil power takeoff. 

But it doesn’t matter. The point is it happens fast. 

Having flown both now, I will say that flying fighters and flying heavies are wildly different. Completely. Fundamentally.  Cultures, mores, techniques, assumptions, and standards don’t easily transfer from one to another.

Edited November 19, 2018 by HossHarris

[HossHarris]

And I should clarify. 

Im not trying to be a raptor apologist. 

Im trying to provide a little context for the folks that think rotating 20 knots off speed is absurd or poor Piloting or gross negligence  

It’s not.

It’s a radio call ... it’s cross checking something inside the cockpit for a glance ... it’s seeing movement in your peripheral vision and glancing over to see if it’s a bird or another aircraft .... it’s less than a second. 

The dude fucked up. He had the wrong told. He had bad techniques. It’s a community issue. Criticise that. 

He didn’t have a crew of 3 or 4 people up front, with at least 2 of them doing nothing else but staring at the airspeed indicator nor the luxury of time. 

That’s the crux of my issue

[JeremiahWeed]

I wasn’t referring to the mishap. Below the video you posted you said it was a non-AB takeoff. I was saying the burners looked like they were going when it went by the camera. So, I was asking if you normally take off in mil and then select AB once clean.

[HossHarris]

3 minutes ago, JeremiahWeed said:

I wasn’t referring to the mishap. Below the video you posted you said it was a non-AB takeoff. I was saying the burners looked like they were going when it went by the camera. So, I was asking if you normally take off in mil and then select AB once clean.

(Yup ... and I wasn’t really replying to you)

its a fighter, if you need burner you plug it in and use it. No idea what the plan was for that video, or if it was a mil or AB takeoff. 

AB takeoffs use a LOT of gas ...

[JeremiahWeed]

28 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

its a fighter, if you need burner you plug it in and use it.

AB takeoffs use a LOT of gas ...

[BashiChuni]

6 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Here you go, expert. 

Closest thing I could find. Looks like a non-Airshow, non-ab, everyday normal raptor takeoff. 

8 seconds from brake release to nosewheel lift off. 

If you, a perfectly capable aviator evidently, made a 1 second error ... how many knots do you think that would be?  

Best case, light jet and linear acceleration, a 1 second error is 15 knots. Takeoff acceleration isn’t linear. 

So tell me again about the magnitude of the fuckup....

Magnitude of fuckup? You’re kidding right?  

Hoss my point is this: no matter how fast or slow something happens pulling the jet off the runway and raising the gear below flying airspeed is inexcusable. 

Chalking it up to “it happens faster than you think” doesn’t pass the sniff test. 

Sounds like the CAF could use some “getting back to basics”. Which is ironic. 

But I’m not a fighter pilot so clearly I don’t know what I’m talking about. 

[FishBowl]

[matmacwc]

Come on Bashi, 5 minutes in a T-38 sim and you're an expert?  Smarter people are telling you what is up, accept it and move the fuck on.

[BashiChuni]

3 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Come on Bashi, 5 minutes in a T-38 sim and you're an expert?  Smarter people are telling you what is up, accept it and move the fuck on.

Lol. 

[pawnman]

34 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Magnitude of fuckup? You’re kidding right?  

Hoss my point is this: no matter how fast or slow something happens pulling the jet off the runway and raising the gear below flying airspeed is inexcusable. 

Chalking it up to “it happens faster than you think” doesn’t pass the sniff test. 

Sounds like the CAF could use some “getting back to basics”. Which is ironic. 

But I’m not a fighter pilot so clearly I don’t know what I’m talking about. 

If I'm the DO or commander of that fighter squadron, I'd rather deal with a gear overspeed than an aircraft settling onto the runway on its fuselage.

Also, everyone is saying how difficult it is or how fast it happens... Yet Lts manage to do this day in and day out, right out of UPT.  I get that it may take some skill and concentration... That's why you get flight pay, bro.

[brabus]

10 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Yup. 

Modulating the throttle, slowish and lowish, especially if you can go out of and back into blower is a fine way to avoid a gear overspeed. 

Those motors almost never cough when you do that. 

We haven’t planted jets off the departure end at Luke doing that. 

We havent killed people doing that. 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with putting the throttle to MIL around 285C on an AB takeoff if gear overspeed is in question and you've already gone as high a pitch attitude as your comfortable with (more of a player in IMC).  I don't know what the point of your post is, but it's T.O. procedure (and common sense) to take the throttle from AB to MIL after an AB takeoff - there's no reason to be afraid of a stall, etc.

Edited November 20, 2018 by brabus

[DazedandCynical]

9 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Unknown. 

And I don’t know off the top of my cranium if the mishap was AB or mil power takeoff. 

But it doesn’t matter. The point is it happens fast. 

Having flown both now, I will say that flying fighters and flying heavies are wildly different. Completely. Fundamentally.  Cultures, mores, techniques, assumptions, and standards don’t easily transfer from one to another.

Making sure you are flying before you raise the gear isn’t a technique. 

[JRBac]

It's not like this one came down to a split second mistake...his decision to rotate at 120 etc etc was apparently made long before the day of the mishap.

[icohftb]

Had he simply rotated early, took an extra hop to get airborne, and then raised the gear up while in a safe climb we wouldn't have this thread.

The early vs late rotation is a red herring.

[Majestik Møøse]

So how fast is gear over speed in a Raptor?

[Day Man]

have we ruled out whether he was task-saturated with getting ATIS yet?

[icohftb]

Apparently rotation + 20 kts

[Majestik Møøse]

26 minutes ago, icohftb said:

Apparently rotation + 20 kts

Plus the time it takes the gear doors to close, which probably feels like an eternity while the jet is accelerating in AB.

[norskman]

23 hours ago, pawnman said:

If I'm the DO or commander of that fighter squadron, I'd rather deal with a gear overspeed than an aircraft settling onto the runway on its fuselage.

Also, everyone is saying how difficult it is or how fast it happens... Yet Lts manage to do this day in and day out, right out of UPT.  I get that it may take some skill and concentration... That's why you get flight pay, bro.

I'm just a helicopter pilot, but aren't you a Nav? 

[pawnman]

55 minutes ago, norskman said:

I'm just a helicopter pilot, but aren't you a Nav? 

Yes, but one with three thousand hours and five years of FTU experience.  I get that many of us don't know what it's like to fly an F-16 or F-22... But it can't be as impossible as some guys are trying to make it sound when we do it every single day, usually without parking an aircraft on the fuselage.

I also know my own commander would rather explain a gear overspeed than a tail scrape (easy to do in the B-1).

[Champ Kind]

The fighter TOLD experts coming up on the net is approaching the entertainment of the amateur civil engineers in the Tyndall hurricane thread. Is this really adding value to the post-AIB discussion?

 

 

[Homestar]

I for one never considered how quickly a fighter can get from rotate to gear over speed during takeoff. My first impression was that it was ridiculous to rotate that early, but it makes sense now where that community is coming from. 

Hopefully some good procedural improvements come about from this mishap.