GA Aircraft Flown

[brabus]

@Royal I love flying the decathlon. Full aerobatics with good handling and performance, while also a nice VFR cruiser to go grab some lunch. I found it to be a good TW to learn in as well. My buddy also jumped out of it (STC for door off flight)...lots of fun to be had in that airplane. For reference, this is a ‘91 8KCAB. 

Hoping by summer of 22 to also have a Stearman. I rent 4 place airplanes when I want to take the whole family somewhere; not a lot of rental opportunity for the 2 seat “non-standard fun” airplanes. That was primary driver for why I’ve gone this route in GA vs. the traditional 4-place Cessna/Piper direction. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by brabus

[HuggyU2]

We've got a few guys in the squadron that own 4-place aircraft... and they actually fill all 4 seats on a regular basis.  

But I think they are generally the exception.  Another guy in the squadron just got rid of his Bonanza and bought an RV-8 that is almost done.  He said he seldom flies with more than 1 pax.  

[Orbit]

I'm partial to RVs but there is a reason why there are so many of them flying.  You can fly quickly and still land on a lot of backcountry strips and go camping.  

[kaputt]

Has anyone used an aircraft they’ve owned for instruction?

I was potentially looking into picking up a tailwheel aircraft (Citabria or Decathlon) and having it be available at a flight school I have a relationship with for tailwheel endorsements and spin training. It would not be available for solo rental and myself and the school’s chief pilot would be the only instructors authorized to fly it. 

I’ve read a lot on the financial/tax items of registering it under an LLC and the cost offsetting that can come from an aircraft  being used as a business asset and not just a recreational hobby. I totally understand this would likely not cover the total cost of the aircraft but it seems like a potential way to help offset some cost of ownership via tax incentives and instruction revenue. 

Insurance quotes are significantly cheaper if the aircraft is dual only and honestly I want to avoid anything to do with solo rental pilots, especially in a tailwheel. Other costs would of course be 100 hour inspections plus maintaining a maintenance fund. Anything else I’m missing?
 

Dumb idea or a legit way to own and operate an aircraft? I enjoy instructing so being able to do that is a positive in my book.  Flight school owner is of course game, but who wouldn’t be for the potential of adding an aircraft to the fleet with limited risk to their own bottom line 😂. 

[HuggyU2]

If you can’t afford the aircraft without doing this, then don’t buy an aircraft. 
 

If you actually can afford it, have a good lawyer and don’t mind unexpected headaches, you might look into buying an aircraft and using it for dual instruction. 
 

Having never owned an aircraft, I’ll defer to those here that have. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by HuggyU2

[brabus]

I know several guys who do this in some form. Yes it’ll offset cost via rental/instruction income and tax breaks (don’t forget to depreciate the plane). Smart to do no solo rental and keep the pool of CFIs who can fly small. The downside will be the plane will take some more abuse by virtue of TW learning and hamfisting aerobatics, it won’t necessarily always be available at the drop of a hat for your personal use. Insurance will also be more, so have to factor that into rental rate. But, overall the guys I know haven’t had massive issues and see more pros than cons. 

[ClearedHot]

13 hours ago, kaputt said:

Has anyone used an aircraft they’ve owned for instruction?

I was potentially looking into picking up a tailwheel aircraft (Citabria or Decathlon) and having it be available at a flight school I have a relationship with for tailwheel endorsements and spin training. It would not be available for solo rental and myself and the school’s chief pilot would be the only instructors authorized to fly it. 

I’ve read a lot on the financial/tax items of registering it under an LLC and the cost offsetting that can come from an aircraft  being used as a business asset and not just a recreational hobby. I totally understand this would likely not cover the total cost of the aircraft but it seems like a potential way to help offset some cost of ownership via tax incentives and instruction revenue. 

Insurance quotes are significantly cheaper if the aircraft is dual only and honestly I want to avoid anything to do with solo rental pilots, especially in a tailwheel. Other costs would of course be 100 hour inspections plus maintaining a maintenance fund. Anything else I’m missing?
 

Dumb idea or a legit way to own and operate an aircraft? I enjoy instructing so being able to do that is a positive in my book.  Flight school owner is of course game, but who wouldn’t be for the potential of adding an aircraft to the fleet with limited risk to their own bottom line 😂. 

Brabus summed it nicely and you have outlined some fairly strict constraints so it may work for you.  I looked at a partnership but ultimately decided I want full control and access.  I've heard and seen several nightmares associated with "renting" your aircraft including the one outlined in the video below.

 

[kaputt]

Appreciate the responses. It good to hear that some have had a positive experience going this route.

@brabus, when you mention depreciating the plane, I assume you were hinting that there might be some sort of tax advantage when factoring in the depreciation amount on the aircraft, is that correct? Is there a big difference between going this route with a new aircraft vs a used one? I know that aircraft value does not exactly operate the same way as say, a car, and that values tend to eventually level out and hold at a certain level as long as the aircraft is well maintained, has full records, etc... I had been looking at used Citabrias in the 10-15 year old range or less. Hadn't considered going new but wouldn't be opposed to that necessarily. 

 

@ClearedHot That is exactly the nightmare scenario I would want to avoid by prohibiting solo rental. Its incredible to me what some rental pilots will do to an aircraft. A tailwheel I used to rent was totaled by solo renter who had only 6 hours of tailwheel time. 

[brabus]

If it’s a business asset, you can depreciate it over the course of 5 years (I think it’s 5). That means you’re lowering your AGI. You can also write off expenses. To start, create an LLC. That LLC now leases the airplane to the club. There’s a lot more to it, but that’s the cliff notes. 

[bfargin]

I'm not a tax expert but am a CPA so know a bit about depreciation. If it's used more than 50% for business you can usually doing a MACRS (modified accelerated cost recovery) and depreciate over 5, 6 or 7 years depending upon all of the ownership and use details. If it doesn't meet that standard (50% business use), you can still depreciate straight-line (ACR) over a longer period of time. Even whether the asset is operated under Part 135 or Part 91, has an impact on how you can depreciate.

[ClearedHot]

9 hours ago, bfargin said:

I'm not a tax expert but am a CPA so know a bit about depreciation. If it's used more than 50% for business you can usually doing a MACRS (modified accelerated cost recovery) and depreciate over 5, 6 or 7 years depending upon all of the ownership and use details. If it doesn't meet that standard (50% business use), you can still depreciate straight-line (ACR) over a longer period of time. Even whether the asset is operated under Part 135 or Part 91, has an impact on how you can depreciate.

Going through that process as I set up to receive my new airplane this fall.  It will go into an LLC and I will lease it back to myself.  I pay a monthly usage fee to the LLC which includes sales tax.  I remit the sales tax to the state then the LLC will pay me back the remainder...right pocket to left pocket.  This allows me to drag out the sales tax of $48K over many years instead of one giant check to the state.  I think I can meet the 25% threshold for business usage which will also allow me to write off part of the cost and do some depreciation.   

[kaputt]

Thanks gents for the detailed info. Definitely some more research I’ll need to do on my end before heading in this direction. 
 

Glad to know it’s feasible though and that’s is something fairly commonly done. 

[brickhistory]

Today, I flew an airplane without training wheels for the first time since 1991.  All went well.  Even caught the #3 wire on the first one...

The differences in technology, ATC, and what else is in the air is hugely different and sometimes difficult for an old guy to process.

Fcukin' children of the magenta line...look outside.  That said, the ability to enter/enter/direct and have George point the way home is pretty cool.  But fcukin' look outside and stop staring at the screen.  

Being in the taxi mix with an MQ-9 and in the pattern with same is pretty weird.  But then I remember rotary dial phones with the 12 ft cord twisted all to hell and back.

What the hell happened to all the VORs? (kidding, I'm aware).

When did every middling airport get a control tower?  

I am quietly getting drunk now.  No doubt Biden will stay awake longer than I will tonight.

'Scuse me, there's some pesky kids on the lawn...

[SurelySerious]

NTAs are by far better than most Tower controlled fields, generally. 

[Gnarles]

New member here. 

Started in a PA-28 for PPL, switched schools and finished in a C-172N. Currently own a PA-32-300 with my brother and dad. We're looking to upgrade to a twin eventually but just dropped some coin on autopilot, Garmin glass panel, and some other upgrades so it might be a while.  She's not as fast as a Mooney or high-profile as a Cirrus but she can definitely haul some weight.

[MechGov]

NTAs are by far better than most Tower controlled fields, generally. 

I’m enjoying ATC-Zero ops. Some of the less busy towers are going to CTAF-Ops around 2200 or so.

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, MechGov said:

I’m enjoying ATC-Zero ops. Some of the less busy towers are going to CTAF-Ops around 2200 or so.

 

I love me some zero comms.   Exit the traffic pattern and turn the radio off.   Radio batteries die during my run up...no problem, do a clearing turn and blast.  Best type of flying there is!  

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, MechGov said:

I’m enjoying ATC-Zero ops. Some of the less busy towers are going to CTAF-Ops around 2200 or so.

I've seen that in numerous places this past year.  If you want to see some unique procedures check out my home airport 2R4.  Airspace issues galore (right hand patterns required on 18, left hand on 36, non-standard 900' pattern thanks to Navy airspace to the north), and military bases all around...all done via CTAF.

 

 

 

 

[MechGov]

I've seen that in numerous places this past year.  If you want to see some unique procedures check out my home airport 2R4.  Airspace issues galore (right hand patterns required on 18, left hand on 36, non-standard 900' pattern thanks to Navy airspace to the north), and military bases all around...all done via CTAF.
 

 
 
 

That’s a fun airport. With the banner tows, navy helos, GA and Elgin range I’m surprised how few incidents are.

[kaputt]

I'm all for non-towered airports; at least until I started flying GA in the LA Basin. Actually all of SoCal is nuts traffic wise. Get me on flight following and in and out of a Class D airport ASAP please.

That being said though, my favorite airport in the area, Agua Dulce, is non-towered. Its an absolutely picture perfect SoCal airport and could be a postcard for GA flying. Tons of interesting movie history at the field as well.

L70.com - Agua Dulce Airport (l70airport.com)

 

[ryleypav]

19 hours ago, MechGov said:

I’m enjoying ATC-Zero ops. Some of the less busy towers are going to CTAF-Ops around 2200 or so.

My local Class D was like this for most of the covid times during 2020. It was weird turning the lights on myself and making pattern calls there, but it was pretty cool. They're pretty much back to normal ops now though as far as the tower goes. 

[Prozac]

8 hours ago, kaputt said:

I'm all for non-towered airports; at least until I started flying GA in the LA Basin. Actually all of SoCal is nuts traffic wise. Get me on flight following and in and out of a Class D airport ASAP please.

That being said though, my favorite airport in the area, Agua Dulce, is non-towered. Its an absolutely picture perfect SoCal airport and could be a postcard for GA flying. Tons of interesting movie history at the field as well.

L70.com - Agua Dulce Airport (l70airport.com)

 

I used to be based in ONT. Can’t tell you how many times there were conflicts where some yahoo would fly right across the approach corridor for the 26s, trying to get across the mountains, not talking to anybody. Flight following should be mandatory in the LA basin. 

[kaputt]

For the experimental guys:

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/news-and-publications/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/news/07-08-2021-faa-releases-policy-on-training-in-experimental-primary-and-limited-category-aircraft?fbclid=IwAR19Mrep5-YC8HQpxReizXZMr4WhFybp7-ugh6MrGY_37cNhhmpqEqsb84c

BLUF: The FAA, in going after a specific Warbird operator that was giving rides in a warbird and calling it instruction, creates and then doubles down on a rule that essentially outlaws getting instruction in any experimental, even if you are the private owner and are the one receiving instruction. The only recourse is for every single experimental owner to apply for a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA). 
 

Absolutely terrible ruling from the FAA. Big government gonna big government. Under the new ruling you can’t even get a Flight Review in your own RV-8 without a LODA, let alone get transition training or even your PPL if you’re someone who decides to buy an Experimental and train in it. 

[Guardian]

That sucks.

Thoughts on what a LODA is? Approval process? How long it lasts? Does everyone have to get one? That kind of stuff

[SurelySerious]

Thoughts are that the FAA must really dislike general aviation because all of the strides lately in making it more accessible have been on the experimental side…and this kills that.