Heavy guys instructing T-38s

[AHeavyGuy]

I heard that they're starting to send heavy guys to instruct Phase III T-38s. Does anyone know if this is only guys with prior T-38 time or if they are taking T-1 guys as well?

[HerkDriver87]

43 minutes ago, AHeavyGuy said:

I heard that they're starting to send heavy guys to instruct Phase III T-38s. Does anyone know if this is only guys with prior T-38 time or if they are taking T-1 guys as well?

AFAIK they're all folks who at a minimum flew 38's while they attended UPT. I graduated from DLF (Phase III 38's) last December and at the time there were about 10 non Fighter/Bomber/FAIP T-38 IPs in the squadron. They all few 38s while they were in UPT and the number of non-CAF IPs seemed to be steadily increasing as well.  

I can't speak to whether or not it's a straight "no" for non-38 UPT folks to jump into that game, but just a data point for consumption.

[Duck]

The rumor I heard right before I left PIT was that soon it would be T-1 guys teaching the T-38 track due to lack of T-38 trained pilots. I imagine it will only get worse.

[di1630]

The rumor I heard right before I left PIT was that soon it would be T-1 guys teaching the T-38 track due to lack of T-38 trained pilots. I imagine it will only get worse.

No way, we’d be much better off just making a ton of faips vs that solution.

[LookieRookie]

FWIW, T-1 guys who have taught T-6s are now eligible to teach phase III T-38s from the last PIT syllabus revision. It specifically lists T-6s as a 2-FL equivalent.

[HossHarris]

Certainly no one will die because of this glorious decision 

[YoungnDumb]

This has been going on for a few years now...people are just now catching on?

[pawnman]

No fighter guys left to do it.  B-1s are sending zero people to white jets this VML as well.

[BashiChuni]

Everyone used to fly t-38s anyway. Not a huge deal IMO. 

Kids just learning how to be a good admin wingman. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by BashiChuni

[Clark Griswold]

5 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Certainly no one will die because of this glorious decision 

Heavy drivers (T-1 trained) are just that bad / untrainable to become a T-38 IP later (or anytime) in their careers?

[brabus]

Don't think that applies to every T-1 guy, but I still remember a sizeable difference between most of my 38 IPs (all fighter/bomber, couple FAIPs) and my phase 2 IPs (all non-CAF). Certainly not in bromanship, but yes in flying ability and in several cases, instructional ability. The two tracks/mentality are not significantly similar that one can excel at teaching either. My 38 IPs probably would have been shitty T-1 IPs.

Secondly, yes I think most guys could pass PIT and teach basic 38 stuff. But the mentality difference, lack of CAF experience, etc. is not growing that student to be ready for IFF and the CAF squadron that lies beyond.

[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Don't think that applies to every T-1 guy, but I still remember a sizeable difference between most of my 38 IPs (all fighter/bomber, couple FAIPs) and my phase 2 IPs (all non-CAF). Certainly not in bromanship, but yes in flying ability and in several cases, instructional ability. The two tracks/mentality are not significantly similar that one can excel at teaching either. My 38 IPs probably would have been shitty T-1 IPs.

Secondly, yes I think most guys could pass PIT and teach basic 38 stuff. But the mentality difference, lack of CAF experience, etc. is not growing that student to be ready for IFF and the CAF squadron that lies beyond.

Fair enough and rather than starting another round of Heavy v Fighter version 69,000 I will agree some T-1 trained could do it, some couldn't (sts) , I would just add that it would be the majority of T-1 guys and not the minority could rise to the challenge....

Sidebar, SUPT should end and the USAF return to UPT, coming up on 19 years in Big Blue and flying over 17, it (SUPT) is having a pernicious effect of creating and us vs them culture, I feel like it is always there and it just screws things up.  Two cents paid.

 

[Fuzz]

7 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Heavy drivers (T-1 trained) are just that bad / untrainable to become a T-38 IP later (or anytime) in their careers?

Let’s be realistic about who the MAF is sending back to UPT. Our manning and experience is becoming as critical as the CAF, we can’t afford good pilots leaving the communities outside of special programs. Besides a few volunteers for family reasons, those we send back are typically not our strongest swimmers, and some are barely above drowning at any given second.

[Hacker]

8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Kids just learning how to be a good admin wingman. 

Unfortunately, in order for someone to learn how to be a good wingman, their teacher needs to have some idea of what that means.

That's not about talent, that's about experience.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Hacker

[Guest]

Unfortunately, in order for someone to learn how to be a good wingman, their teacher needs to have some idea of what that means.
That's not about talent, that's about experience.

So how do you justify T-38 FAIPs?

[Duck]

So how do you justify T-38 FAIPs?

Someone has to make the corn...

[dream big]

3 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Let’s be realistic about who the MAF is sending back to UPT. Our manning and experience is becoming as critical as the CAF, we can’t afford good pilots leaving the communities outside of special programs. Besides a few volunteers for family reasons, those we send back are typically not our strongest swimmers, and some are barely above drowning at any given second.

Well then hopefully the PIT IPs do their job and wash them out.  If they make it through PIT, then hopefully they are trainable. 

[Hacker]

3 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

So how do you justify T-38 FAIPs?

I don't.  Honestly, if it were up to me, we wouldn't have them.

FAIPs are fine when used among an experienced instructor corps who can moderate their lack of operational experience.  They excel at what they know...and to a generally terrible job at teaching what they don't.

When I was an IFF IP, one of my jobs was managing tracking the graduation-vs-washout statistics for the two IFF squadrons at Moody.  For two straight years, there was a notably higher washout rate of students who had graduated from Vance vs any of the other winging pipelines.

I participated in an IEP to Vance that was sort of a fact-finding expedition to see what was going on there.  What we found was that at the time (04-05 timeframe) there were a large number of FAIPs and reduced contingent of IPs who were fresh from the CAF.  We observed a number of things being taught that were poor technique and contrary to what was going to be expected of IFF students.

When we asked some of the IPs (FAIPs and a couple of bomber-background IPs) why they were teaching what they did, they answered, "this is how they do it out in the CAF..."

Further digging revealed that it had been a lot of FAIPs teaching FAIPs these techniques, and a lot of misunderstood 3rdhand "knowledge" leading to it.  Furthermore, there weren't enough experienced IPs to call their bluff.

So, again, it was not a talent issue, it was an experience issue.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Hacker

[war007afa]

So knowing this, is it advisable to send FAIPs to IFF to at least try to minimize what they don’t know? Does the recency of IFF experience correlate to B-course performance?

[matmacwc]

As long as the heavy guys teaching T-38s know their place it shouldn’t be the end of the world.  Their credibility stops fairly early in formation, it’s just the way it is.

cue up the questions of doing a T-38 white jet tour then moving on to fighters, which is a terrible idea but somebody is going to ask it.

Edited June 12, 2018 by matmacwc

[Homestar]

This seems like a horrible idea to me for a lot of reasons.  My upside down flying stopped after Tweets and I was never really great at it anyway. Which explains why I tracked T-1s. Until the AF gets out of the “specialized” part of SUPT it seems like it’s locked into the current paradigm. 

I mean, I like jalapeño popcorn. But not for breakfast. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Homestar

[matmacwc]

45 minutes ago, Homestar said:

 

I mean, I like jalapeño popcorn. But not for breakfast. 

You bite your commie mouth there Stalin.

[LookieRookie]

2 hours ago, war007afa said:

So knowing this, is it advisable to send FAIPs to IFF to at least try to minimize what they don’t know? Does the recency of IFF experience correlate to B-course performance?

Sheppard sends its FAIPs to IFF before PIT now because they are both in house.

Edited June 12, 2018 by LookieRookie

[LookieRookie]

Devil's advocate view: IFF squadrons a lot of times say UPs suck no matter what.

[YoungnDumb]

2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Sheppard sends its FAIPs to IFF before PIT now because they are both in house.

Interesting, wonder what happens when they head to bombers following their FAIP tour?