Heavy guys instructing T-38s

[DEVIL]

Assuming that our new reality is that we aren't going to get 11Fs more into UPT, and 11Ms can pass PIT, and teach the standard syllabus (devoid of comment on experience, culture, etc, and they can not try and poison the yoots by talking about per diem and breaking in Rota), if this is the way of the future, what about adding a few weeks to IFF to increase the exposure there? 

 

Now that I've typed that I'm pretty sure that takes us right back to UPT, not SUPT. But oh well. 

[Duck]

Assuming that our new reality is that we aren't going to get 11Fs more into UPT, and 11Ms can pass PIT, and teach the standard syllabus (devoid of comment on experience, culture, etc, and they can not try and poison the yoots by talking about per diem and breaking in Rota), if this is the way of the future, what about adding a few weeks to IFF to increase the exposure there? 
 
Now that I've typed that I'm pretty sure that takes us right back to UPT, not SUPT. But oh well. 

No way in hell. They are trying to cut the timeline not add to it. If they could do all of IFF in a simulator they would.

[ViperStud]

2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Great point! I agree, that's why we have IFF and FTUs.

Incorrect. What, ~3 form rides in IFF?  The only ones that get a dedicated form ride in the FTU are internationals. IFF/ FTU syllabi are built on the assumption that UPT taught them basics, like formation. I left Luke back in the day with almost 100 hrs.  Punks now leave with <69 hrs.  

 

There is no room in the syllabus for re-visiting basics. When they suck at admin the end up on CAP and unable to do basic employment tasks like running FCR/TGP, using visual references to find a bomb wire or executing a valid threat reaction. There is only room on the iceberg for so many penguins. When students spend so many brain bytes on form/admin, they fvck up many other basic tasks. Worst case, they try to do everything, prioritize the wrong things and run jets together. This has happened and will continue to happen. 

Having an attitude of “these 20+ Dedicated form rides in UPT aren’t critical, they’ll fix that shit in IFF/FTU” shows that you don’t know what the hell you're talkingg about. Get over the butthurt. It’s not about IP ability/aptitude, it’s about IP skillset/experience. 

[Gazmo]

Here's how you do it. You get the reserves to increase their AGR billets at all the UPT bases so you can take a former CAF pilot gone airlines and bring them back on a 6 mo, 1 yr, 2yr AGR tours while on mil leave from their company. You may have quite a few reservists willing to do the full-time thing for more AD points towards a reserve retirement. Even better, if there are ANG units close enough, you may find some ANG pilots to do it also.

[icohftb]

32 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

Incorrect. What, ~3 form rides in IFF?  The only ones that get a dedicated form ride in the FTU are internationals. IFF/ FTU syllabi are built on the assumption that UPT taught them basics, like formation. I left Luke back in the day with almost 100 hrs.  Punks now leave with <69 hrs.  

 

There is no room in the syllabus for re-visiting basics. When they suck at admin the end up on CAP and unable to do basic employment tasks like running FCR/TGP, using visual references to find a bomb wire or executing a valid threat reaction. There is only room on the iceberg for so many penguins. When students spend so many brain bytes on form/admin, they fvck up many other basic tasks. Worst case, they try to do everything, prioritize the wrong things and run jets together. This has happened and will continue to happen. 

Having an attitude of “these 20+ Dedicated form rides in UPT aren’t critical, they’ll fix that shit in IFF/FTU” shows that you don’t know what the hell you're talkingg about. Get over the butthurt. It’s not about IP ability/aptitude, it’s about IP skillset/experience. 

Last i checked actually get 4 form rides to fix the form they learned in upt

[LookieRookie]

28 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

 

Having an attitude of “these 20+ Dedicated form rides in UPT aren’t critical, they’ll fix that shit in IFF/FTU” shows that you don’t know what the hell you're talkingg about. Get over the butthurt. It’s not about IP ability/aptitude, it’s about IP skillset/experience. 

That's not what I said. UPT does not produce fighter wingmen, IFF/FTU do.

 

Formation admin and visual recognition for LoS, AA, etc... isn't rocket surgery. UPT isn't teaching tactics it's teaching admin. UPs that can't fly form admin shouldn't have graduated, at least in theory. Decreased washout rates are a side effect of pushing more pilots through the pipeline.

[Fuzz]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:01 AM, NKAWTG said:

Not just the weak swimmers heading there.  If you were a T-38 MAF guy, you were heading back to UPT with few exceptions.  Couple that with the MAF taking most of the T-6 slots, and you have a huge experience gap developing in the MAF.  It's not just our commanders who are low time and lack credibility, but the middle of the career junior Majors are rarely IPs now, since they got picked off for a UPT or drone second assignment.  These children of the sequester are now the front line instructors of the shortened UPT product.  May you fly in interesting times.  

We’ve even stopped sending prior 38 guys because we simply can’t afford the manning loss. We just got a huge influx of majors into my squadron which are all returning from UPT/RPA and are pretty much useless. We can barely get them CMR (some we haven’t 1+ years in) before they get sucked up to the GP/WG. So now we have 1st and 2nd assignment IPs teaching not only the new pilots but trying to spin up these majors who can barely fill missions.

[jazzdude]

What about having the heavy background guys teach instruments and transition, freeing up the limited fighter guys to teach form?

[Hacker]

2 hours ago, DEVIL said:

, if this is the way of the future, what about adding a few weeks to IFF to increase the exposure there?

I think the actual solution would be the opposite -- ensuring the PIT syllabus and graduation standards are high enough to take a MAF dude and make him a competent T-38 IP.

I'd love to see MAF-background 38 IPs do a mandatory IEP (or multiple IEPs) to see what IFF is all about, too.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Hacker

[Duck]

I think the actual solution would be the opposite -- ensuring the PIT syllabus and graduation standards are high enough to take a MAF dude and make him a competent T-38 IP.
I'd love to see MAF-background 38 IPs do a mandatory IEP (or multiple IEPs) to see what IFF is all about, too.

Sheppard had a mandatory 2 flights with IFF for T-6 IPs including brief and debrief. Not enough, but at least it was something.

I like the AGR idea, but I just don’t think you would find enough guys at >15 year mark who would sign up. As time goes on and if the airlines keep hiring, I think you will only have two types of people in the AF, guys with less than 12 years and guys who are bonus takers committed to 20+. The middle guys you are talking about will be eroded out.

[brabus]

13 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

What, sending FAIPs to IFF before PIT like the SPS guys? Nope, definitely haven’t been doing that at CBM...

No, I was talking about heavy dudes teaching phase 3 in 38s.

Edited June 15, 2018 by brabus

[YoungnDumb]

Vance sends their FAIP's/heavy IP's to SPS for a week to shadow/sandbag IFF.

[Hacker]

2 hours ago, joe1234 said:

Well, I'm not a fighter guy, but does it involve not irreparably fucking up your own training pipeline manning so hardcore that you have to get a bunch of MAF guys to come and bail you out?

Is that lesson covered in IFF? I wouldn't know, because I never went.

Its even worse, since the pointy-nosed Generals are the ones who are leading the AF into the ditch in the first place.

[Sprkt69]

8 minutes ago, Hacker said:

Its even worse, since the pointy-nosed Generals are the ones who are leading the AF into the ditch in the first place.

Pointy-nosed generals? Those are politicians first. Just like the heavy generals. And aren’t those heavy generals just doing amazing work with the MAF?

[SurelySerious]

On 6/14/2018 at 7:36 AM, Kenny Powers said:

I don't pretend to know what it takes to make a good co-pilot or AC in the heavy world, so I don't understand why non fighter guys think they know what it takes to build a solid wingman in a fighter squadron.

Whatever you think makes a solid wingman, please. 

[dream big]

50 minutes ago, Sprkt69 said:

Pointy-nosed generals? Those are politicians first. Just like the heavy generals. And aren’t those heavy generals just doing amazing work with the MAF?

AMC is probably the most queep infested command right now.  Our generals and aspiring generals wouldn’t know what a cockpit looked like anymore despite having pilot wings on their chest.  

[IDALPHA]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:57 PM, Duck said:

Most of us are gone. My group got hit with a ton of UAVs, Capt promotion boards, two VSPs and a RIF. I have more yet group friends flying for Delta now than I do left in the AF. Back when they opened up crossflow for us, I asked a lot of my buddies if they would sign up for a 3 year ADSC to fly the fighters they were promised and not a single one said they would. The ship is sinking gents, grab a life vest and hold on.

Now there is one more gone! Congrats Duck.....

[Majestik Møøse]

On 6/15/2018 at 5:52 PM, dream big said:

AMC is probably the most queep infested command right now.  Our generals and aspiring generals wouldn’t know what a cockpit looked like anymore despite having pilot wings on their chest.  

Probably? When I was at Travis, it was queep only. Straight from the slides, the #1 Wg priority was OPR/EPR timeliness. The Wg/CC himself was editing 2Lt OPRs to get rid of white space, literally working through the night to do so. Every Sq had to submit full-up 1206s for every possible award (think Blacks In Government, Airman of the Week, Verne Orr’s Wife’s Award, etc). By the time I left, there were 18 quarterly awards categories in addition to the 69 bullshit stand-alone ones. Each was boarded at the OG, with nominees showing up in service dress to the board. Of course, it didn’t matter if the nominee personally kicked bin Laden in the balls, because the squadron with the best copywriter/secretary/chief editor (aka FltCC/Exec/SqCC) combo who were most in accordance with the mandated “Brown Bag” (yak) bullet writing style won anyway. Additionally, every Sq sent up weekly mandatory “Weekly Activity Report” bullets to be run up the flagpole. We’d send up deployment successes and one-off first time mission stuff, but the only things that ever made it out of the Wg were volunteerism bullets. I kid you not, in a Wg with “AMC’s Largest Ops Gp”, well over 95% of what they chose to report to the NAF was decidedly non-ops. They may as well call themselves the 60th Mission Support Wing. The only two Weapons Officers worked as the Wg Exec and Wg DS. There was no mission discussion anywhere; our Sq didn’t even have a room certified to discuss classified information.

This was a place where the guys returning from AETC white jet tours were the voices of reason.

[WheelsOff]

3 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Probably? When I was at Travis, it was queep only. Straight from the slides, the #1 Wg priority was OPR/EPR timeliness. The Wg/CC himself was editing 2Lt OPRs to get rid of white space, literally working through the night to do so. Every Sq had to submit full-up 1206s for every possible award (think Blacks In Government, Airman of the Week, Verne Orr’s Wife’s Award, etc). By the time I left, there were 18 quarterly awards categories in addition to the 69 bullshit stand-alone ones. Each was boarded at the OG, with nominees showing up in service dress to the board. Of course, it didn’t matter if the nominee personally kicked bin Laden in the balls, because the squadron with the best copywriter/secretary/chief editor (aka FltCC/Exec/SqCC) combo who were most in accordance with the mandated “Brown Bag” (yak) bullet writing style won anyway. Additionally, every Sq sent up weekly mandatory “Weekly Activity Report” bullets to be run up the flagpole. We’d send up deployment successes and one-off first time mission stuff, but the only things that ever made it out of the Wg were volunteerism bullets. I kid you not, in a Wg with “AMC’s Largest Ops Gp”, well over 95% of what they chose to report to the NAF was decidedly non-ops. They may as well call themselves the 60th Mission Support Wing. The only two Weapons Officers worked as the Wg Exec and Wg DS. There was no mission discussion anywhere; our Sq didn’t even have a room certified to discuss classified information.

This was a place where the guys returning from AETC white jet tours were the voices of reason.

Gross.

If I am forced to return to the Mobility Administration Force, I aspire to be that dirtbag major that flicks boogers at the rampant queep like that in favor of hackin’ the mish. 

[matmacwc]

On 6/15/2018 at 1:55 PM, joe1234 said:

 

Is that lesson covered in IFF? I wouldn't know, because I never went.

Sounds like you kind of wanted to tho 

[Duck]

As a guy who just went from AETC back to AMC, I can say that AETC is more big picture and common sense driven than AMC. It’s gotten worse in the 4.5 years I was gone.

[JeremiahWeed]

I'll be the first to admit that I've been out of touch with UPT for a while (winged in 1989).  But, I still think this issue is getting more concern than it needs.

I get it - there are some guys who might come back to UPT as instructors that have never flown a T-38.  That's what PIT is for.  UPT went dual track to focus some of the later training toward follow on heavy or fighter/bomber MDS requirements, but it was more about the fact that the -38 was in dire need of a break.  When the dual track pipeline came about, it wasn't about producing fighter wingmen.  That's never been the goal of the UPT syllabus.  Teaching someone contact flying, basic acro, extended trail and some initial training in Tactical Formation doesn't seem to be the rocket science it's being made out to be.  Personally, I'd be more worried about getting the guy proficient in single pilot instrument flying.

I had a C-141 pilot as my primary -38 IP.  He hadn't touched a -38 in 6 years when he came back to PIT.  Somehow he managed to get me reasonably proficient in that aircraft.  As an F-15 FTU IP I had to provide way more remedial instrument training than I did worrying about a UP flying tactical.  Just my .02

i just re-read this and I’m not sure I gave my IP the credit he deserved with the “somehow he managed” sarcasm. He was good. He chose to fly a 141 and made no secret he wanted to be an airline guy.  He may not have flown tactical for a living but that really didn’t matter.  I look back and really appreciate his no slack attitude toward instrument skills and precise, smooth flying. Those things he beat into me saved my ass when I was shooting approaches to mins in Europe on a regular basis. That stuff was just as valuable as the other experiences the fighter pilots I flew with in UPT brought. I think my point is, regardless of their background, the IPs teaching our UPT students need to be highly competent. A mix of experience is valuable and nothing in the syllabus is that specific to a particular follow on assignment that a competent pilot can’t learn to teach it. 

Edited June 22, 2018 by JeremiahWeed

[Azimuth]

My last three assignments were AMC, AETC, AMC, with AMC by far being the worst MAJCOM with regard to queep, QoL due to poor leadership, and poor aviation skills. The poor aviation skills were magnified by the “Admin stuff first, flying last” mentality the MAJCOM has. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Azimuth

[flyusaf83]

19 minutes ago, Azimuth said:

My last three assignments were AMC, AETC, AMC, with AMC by far being the worst MAJCOM with regard to queep, QoL due to poor leadership, and poor aviation skills. The poor aviation skills were magnified by the “Admin stuff first, flying last” mentality the MAJCOM has. 

My heavy ACC community was similar. Flying was an afterthought. Queep was the mission.

[Bode]

Is it possible for a T-1 trained B-1 pilot to teach T-38s at UPT? 

I would say the probability is high. DLF currently has a T-1 trained, PC-12/C-145 guy teaching 38s after a few years teaching in T6s.
Someone with that background can speak better to the CAF IMO than most C17 bubbas.


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