“Red is the new Green”

[Gazmo]

RAP for MAF is coming. They talked about it a few weeks ago via AMC/A3T teleconference. We'll see how it works. I am up for any creative change at this point. On the KC-135 side, the Vol 1 needs to be burned and rewritten from scratch. They eventually want to change all the Vol 1's to AFMAN's to humor CSAF's direction to reduce AFI's. So basically it'll be an AFI with a different name. Whatever. They want to make one AFMAN for MAF with addendums for each MDS, which makes sense. The only chapters that should differ from one another are 3, 4 and 5. They could standardize chapters 1, 2, 6, 7 and attachments. In any event, the -135 Vol 1 is ambiguous in many places and contradicts itself in many others. It is also not ARC friendly, which brings me to my next subject. Finally, AMC "appears" to realize that the ARC is not AD; at least when it comes to training and recognizes that the ARC has their own unique challenges/hardships when it comes to training accomplishments. If they could realize that when it comes to deployments, we'll really get somewhere. A3T is letting ANG/AFRC accept all, some or none of the new training requirements and actually allowing ARC develop their own training tables. It's about time. If you want the ARC doing your bitch work at 1/3 the cost of the AD, you need to allow them to do what they need to do, within reason, to make shit happen and remain MR. RAP should eventually help this.

 

M052 and Large Force Integration are bullshit beans for the tanker. The old M050 was 95% of what M052 is anyway. We've had a "tactics sortie" requiring an intel scenario, SPINS, ATO, etc., spelled out in our v1 for years and because some T-tails got shwacked during MG17, they generalized and wanted to inflict the pain on everyone. As far as I know, no tankers got taken out during the exercise, which I guess means the tanker planners did their jobs with their HVAA's - what a concept!

 

We are not a community who lives their life in the vault like the CAF does. Does this need to change? Maybe. Maybe a little. Maybe a lot. We haven't been in the mindset of skurmishing with a nation that could hand us our ass on a silver platter if we don't get our shit together. I think recent tensions with NK got some higher ups nervous and all of a sudden new training events pop up and the acronyms du jour are "CBRNE" and "AERPS". I agree our G060 is weak and maybe we need to hit basic combat flying harder, but for those that played on the tanker side during the opening hours of OUP, circa Mar 2011, you know that we made shit happen with a kneeboard, a 200 and an intel brief walking out the door. For tankers, it's be on time and stay the fvck away from the bad shit. Tell me what time we need to be there and we will be there. Tell us where the bad shit will be and we will stay away from it. The hard part is learning the SPINS.

 

 

[Majestik Møøse]

5 hours ago, Gazmo said:

...M052 and Large Force Integration are bullshit beans for the tanker...As far as I know, no tankers got taken out during the exercise, which I guess means the tanker planners did their jobs with their HVAA's - what a concept!...

...We are not a community who lives their life in the vault like the CAF does. Does this need to change? Maybe...

...I agree our G060 is weak and maybe we need to hit basic combat flying harder, but for those that played on the tanker side during the opening hours of OUP, circa Mar 2011, you know that we made shit happen with a kneeboard, a 200 and an intel brief walking out the door. For tankers, it's be on time and stay the fvck away from the bad shit. Tell me what time we need to be there and we will be there. Tell us where the bad shit will be and we will stay away from it. The hard part is learning the SPINS.

So here’s the spear: both tankers have a bit of a rep for scoffing tactical planning and employment. Typical tanker dude: “Just plan me a track that’s safe from danger and tell me when to be there. Somebody else knows what those threats can do and the AWACS will tell me to scram if I have to. Well maybe, but I honestly don’t even care so I’m not even going to try to load HQ. Make sure you prioritize my receiver timing for me and give me enough fuel. If any of this plan doesn’t go perfectly, I will bitch about it publicly on the AOR freq but not attend any debriefs or further planning sessions. Where’s dinner?”

At least it was that way in 2014, maybe things are better now.

[Homestar]

That’s been tanker standard for decades. 

If we wanted to be tactical we all would have done better in UPT. 

[Right Seat Driver]

23 minutes ago, Homestar said:

That’s been tanker standard for decades. 

If we wanted to be tactical we all would have done better in UPT. 

I wanted tankers out of UPT. That aside, the tanker community needs to stop using the excuse that most of the dudes weren't the best studs in UPT to not act like professional military aviators. 

[Warrior]

M052 is a bullshit bean, especially because the C-17s can establish currency in the sim while other MAF aircraft can only maintain it with DMO (how's that working out MAF-wide?). You can't sit there and tell me to accomplish a sortie with a tactical scenario all at the UNCLASS level with 69 caveats that the process is worthless. Not to mention I have to coordinate with outside players such as TAC C2, DCA/OCA and ISR, etc. You think I can get a four-ship of Eagles and an RC-135 to magically show up for my little training requirement? And if I can't get external support to help out with my shitty M052 requirement I can just say the external support to the MAF mission is "notional." UFB. How about the MAF starts to actually care about Red Flags, WSINT support and the other LFEs out there. And when I say care I mean setup MPCs at both home-station and at the TDY locations to actually start getting crews to think smarter about their mission set and focus on integration.
The minimally staffed AMC/A3D/V barely put in the work and pushed this pile of shit on the units. I get AMC/A3D/V is struggling, but the execution was rough. Put the time in the process before you push the product. You know get the MAF to focus on readiness and proficiency? Get rid of the risk averse atitudes that values the CFC, Christmas parties and the CGOC because they are too scared or ignorant to employ their aircraft. Fire commanders that can't execute, instruct an advocate for their unit's mission and replace them with those who can.
Oh yeah, and slash the MAF Vol 1s and replace them with RAP.

Know how I know you weren’t at MAF WEPTAC last year?

[Right Seat Driver]

4 minutes ago, Warrior said:

 

 

Know how I know you weren’t at MAF WEPTAC last year?

 

 

Correct, I wasn't there. If my post is off-base then just say so.

[Danger41]

I’m interested to hear about the exercise where the MAF dudes did that bad. My main MAF interactions have been out at WSINT and they’ve done well. The others have been on rotators in and out of theater  and they let me put up a hammock so I love them.

[StrikeOut312]

4 hours ago, Right Seat Driver said:

I wanted tankers out of UPT. That aside, the tanker community needs to stop using the excuse that most of the dudes weren't the best studs in UPT to not act like professional military aviators. 

This comment pushed me over the edge to make a profile and comment instead of continuing to lurk and read.

I had 135s in my top 10 back in '14 (AFSOC was 1-3), and am now exceedingly pleased with how things turned out.  Tanker dudes have a tendency to dump on themselves and are perceived as lazy; the mission isn't glamorous or really that difficult.  For example the lack of challenging mission sets is why CFIC feels like the pattern survival program.  Still, besides the airlifters that aren't gonna kill anyone anyway, everyone needs tanker gas to execute their missions well.  But if you point out the possibility that tankers might be TOO chilled out, a lot of the other guys will call you a nerd.

Besides the self-induced laid back community, tankers are just too tapped out.  Dudes are going through the revolving door of deployments, Red Flags, Guam, and yes, SOS, with barely anytime at home.  How are you supposed to implement M052 or any other training?  Does anyone know what proficiency is anymore?  The copilots are seeing the mass exodus of the senior IP types, hearing about the dreaded 179+ day deployments, and plotting their own escape.

If you're a pilot, proficiency should be your goal and you should be empowered to get there.  All the rest of the queep is killing that objective.

[Fuzz]

16 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I’m interested to hear about the exercise where the MAF dudes did that bad. My main MAF interactions have been out at WSINT and they’ve done well. The others have been on rotators in and out of theater  and they let me put up a hammock so I love them.

That’s because you were probably dealing with WUGs or selected airdrop crews. MG17 we made a conscious effort to not stack the deck and send crews 4 deep on IP/EPs. Only time we picked crews for the most part were when regs drove crew qual positions (formation or package lead qual’d etc). Turns out when you send our line ACs on the road TDY/deployed for 200+ days minimum every year there’s not a lot of chances for them to hone those other skill sets and then GOs act shocked when they go tumbleweed and blow right through a a TACSAM WEZ.

[Rufus]

30 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

 

 

McConnell has the SOAR mission for non-standard AR. Other than that, good tanker planning puts us outside the threats. Why? Because WTF are we going to do if we are fired upon? When the extent of our tactics consists of turning lights off or rolling wings level to take the hit, you can't fault tanker crews from being tactically complacent. Last time I checked, neither tanker has RWR or any sort of missile warning system. LAIRCM will eventually come and I'm sure the -46 will have fancy toys on it, when Boeing actually gets it working correctly enough to enter service. So yes, we rely on AWACS because we're inheretantly SOL in a true threat environment. What does loading HQ have to do with anything? It's one of the most primative tactical equipment that exists for anything but maybe formation interplane. What "debriefs" and "further planning sessions" do you speak of? I could just see that faces of the planners in the CAOC if any line-flying tanker toads walked in wanting to attend any sort of "planning session".

 

If this is what your WOs are telling you at your base, you have a serious problem.  Good tanker planning leverages both off-board capabilities and tactical situational awareness to place you as close to your receiver’s objective area as the CFACC’s ALR permits.  Your job is to identify and mitigate risk, not to stay outside the WEZ.  When was the last war the tankers were able to remain that far away?  Hint: probably not in your lifetime.

RWR and LAIRCM don’t make you tactical. Neither does flying low to the ground or using high bank angles.  And in our most important missions, you’ll never be able to rely on the AWACS to be able to provide you timely threat information.  

If you’re a tanker crew dog, you need to get back into the books and ask more questions.  The next enemy won’t be polite enough to forgive you your flawed logic—and as far as we know our amazing new fighters and bombers haven’t learned how to fly without fuel yet.

 

[the g-man]

Let’s also be real, when did NMR truly keep anyone from going on the road in the MAF? Most line items will drive instructor supervision for the event at most.

Didn’t do all the required NVG ALZ in the half? Hopefully I don’t have to do that on my ILS into KEWR.

Went non-current for AR on June 25 and couldn’t get back in the jet congrats! You’re the AC on this mission to EBBR on the 3rd of July, don’t worry there isn’t planned AR/don’t worry there is a current IP on the crew!

[the g-man]

If this is what your WOs are telling you at your base, you have a serious problem.  Good tanker planning leverages both off-board capabilities and tactical situational awareness to place you as close to your receiver’s objective area as the CFACC’s ALR permits.  Your job is to identify and mitigate risk, not to stay outside the WEZ.  When was the last war the tankers were able to remain that far away?  Hint: probably not in your lifetime.
RWR and LAIRCM don’t make you tactical. Neither does flying low to the ground or using high bank angles.  And in our most important missions, you’ll never be able to rely on the AWACS to be able to provide you timely threat information.  
If you’re a tanker crew dog, you need to get back into the books and ask more questions.  The next enemy won’t be polite enough to forgive you your flawed logic—and as far as we know our amazing new fighters and bombers haven’t learned how to fly without fuel yet.
 

When are these guys supposed to get in the books for this? On their 1 week of R&R after their 2nd deployment to the Deid this year?

[Rufus]

13 minutes ago, the g-man said:

When are these guys supposed to get in the books for this? On their 1 week of R&R after their 2nd deployment to the Deid this year?

Sounds like a conversation that needs to happen in the squadron.  Building combat capability is the primary purpose of any AF squadron.  We can blame competing requirements all day long, but until your commanders take personal risk in order to prioritize what matters, we’ll continue to perpetuate these tactical myths and forget that there’s an enemy preparing to take us out.

By the way—no snark intended.  It’s a legit question. Though I’d love to see a commander fired for saying no to the queep and getting his crews into the vault.  Also, there’s ample opportunity for crews to study downrange.  That’s simply a matter of coordination.

[Danger41]

43 minutes ago, the g-man said:

When are these guys supposed to get in the books for this? On their 1 week of R&R after their 2nd deployment to the Deid this year?

Down range is the best place to get into the books, in my opinion. You fly and workout. That leaves tons of time to get in the books. Maybe that’s just my community but our guys are way sharper and ready to upgrade at the end of deployments.

I don’t say that derisively, simply my communities technique that seems to work.

Personal note: I’m the son of a tanker pilot and love the entire tanker enterprise. I’m not the only one. Talk to a Thud or Phantom driver that went downtown in Route Pack VI and had his bacon saved by some warrior minded tanker crews. The tanker dudes won’t be able to buy a drink all night.

[Rufus]

On 7/14/2018 at 9:26 PM, Champ Kind said:

This could be fuel for the argument that's come up in a previous thread:  the MAF doesn't know what to do with WOs. Well, here's their chance.  You want to beef up training requirements to reflect the current threats out there and the integration required to mitigate them?  You've got people on your base that can have your crews ready when shit hits the fan.  You just need to let them develop and execute a training plan and leave them alone as far as the other jobs and queep Dream Big discussed above.  And when your units are better off than they were before as a result of the hard work, reward the guy or gal appropriately (and I don't mean with a sweet exec "opportunity") and push them for leadership roles.  

This really is not that difficult.  

Fact

[Homestar]

11 hours ago, Rufus said:

getting his crews into the vault.

What is this "vault" you speak of?

Tanker clowns spend time in the vault, but it's not about learning how to stay out of a WEZ.

[Majestik Møøse]

1 minute ago, Homestar said:

What is this "vault" you speak of?

Tanker clowns spend time in the vault, but it's not about learning how to stay out of a WEZ.

There are tanker squadrons out there that don’t have a classified space in the building.

[Lord Ratner]

Y'all are gonna ruin the best thing about being a tanker pilot

[Bergman]

On 7/15/2018 at 4:45 PM, Homestar said:

If we wanted to be tactical we all would have done better in UPT. 

Meh.  I know where I, and about 75% of the other dudes in my guard squadron, finished in our UPT classes.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Bergman

[Azimuth]

59 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

There are tanker squadrons out there that don’t have a classified space in the building.

There’s usually a huge SCIF on base where all tanker crews do all their high side things instead of having individual vaults in the squadrons. 

[Homestar]

2 hours ago, Bergman said:

Meh.  I know where I, and about 75% of the other dudes in my guard squadron, finished in our UPT classes.

One of my class DGs was a Nebraska Guard KC-135 guy. The rest of us who got tankers were solid middle third. I got exactly what I wanted out of UPT and spent half my career flying the -135. When I was a young copilot the tactics consisted of spiral up, spiral down (dumb tactics) and eventually just morphed into “just fly wings level and brace for impact.”  Why do I need to spend any seconds of my life studying the effective range of an SA-69 if there is literally nothing I can do about it?

id just as soon trust that all the pilots in my squadron can fly to the CP on time and give an efficient offload. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Homestar

[Gazmo]

When I was a young copilot the tactics consisted of spiral up, spiral down (dumb tactics) and eventually just morphed into “just fly wings level and brace for impact.”  Why do I need to spend any seconds of my life studying the effective range of an SA-69 if there is literally nothing I can do about it?

Word.

[Danger41]

If a young guy shows a desire to “be tactical” in the tanker community, is he ostracized by the old heads with the attitude in the previous posts or is that trait encouraged?

[Runr6730]

17 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

If a young guy shows a desire to “be tactical” in the tanker community, is he ostracized by the old heads with the attitude in the previous posts or is that trait encouraged?

Not ostracized, it’s just seen as a moot point in the tanker.  We aren’t maneuverable, don’t have defensive systems, and for that reason are rarely placed inside any threat ring.  

Honestly, the most tactical thing tanker drivers can do is to do a thorough mission plan and brief, understand the threats, STFU, stop trying to sound like an airline pilot, and stick to the EMCON.

[Warrior]

Not ostracized, it’s just seen as a moot point in the tanker.  We aren’t maneuverable, don’t have defensive systems, and for that reason are rarely placed inside any threat ring.  
Honestly, the most tactical thing tanker drivers can do is to do a thorough mission plan and brief, understand the threats, STFU, stop trying to sound like an airline pilot, and stick to the EMCON.

You tanker guys sound like you have battered wife syndrome. There’s more to tactics than defensive systems, but there’s also plenty of room for improvement in the areas you mention.