Do T-6 students practice SFO's or forced landings

[dannoc]

I'm an ancient one having trained in T-37's, T-38s and instructed in both.  I'm just trying to learn a little about the present syllabus at UPT.  Question:  Do T-6 students/instructors practice SFO's or forced landings or is it taught to take the silk highway in case of engine failure.

[Stoker]

Solo students are expected to either land the plane via normal overhead, or eject. No ELPs, and we don't practice them in the aircraft. Still have to know the details of an ELP for GK.

Instructors and some international students still do ELPs.

[dannoc]

Thanks for answering.  I'm a bit confused on what ELP stands for.  Is it similar to an SFO (for single engine fighters).  And do the instructors practice it?

Edit: if it stands for emergency landing procedures then I get it.  We just called everything EP's

Edited September 12, 2018 by dannoc

[LookieRookie]

13 minutes ago, dannoc said:

Thanks for answering.  I'm a bit confused on what ELP stands for.  Is it similar to an SFO (for single engine fighters).  And do the instructors practice it?

Edit: if it stands for emergency landing procedures then I get it.  We just called everything EP's

Emergency landing pattern is what T-6s call SFOs. Then there are two types from that - Precautionary Emergency Landing (PEL) where you can use the motor and Simulated Forced Landing (SFL) either land or go around 

[dannoc]

Thanks.  I get it now.  Just trying to picture what training might be required for a future single engine TX if the motor quits.  I assume it would be similar.

[Standby]

1 hour ago, dannoc said:

Thanks.  I get it now.  Just trying to picture what training might be required for a future single engine TX if the motor quits.  I assume it would be similar.

I’d imagine similar to the Viper for IPs and zero SP training on it. 

[brabus]

Why did they stop teaching ELPs? Part of the cutting sorties to save time/money, product quality be damned?

[HuggyU2]

21 hours ago, Stoker said:

 No ELPs, and we don't practice them in the aircraft.

YGBSM.  

"The greatest Air Force in the world"... and we cannot manage to teach educated professional aviators this skill.  

[B.L]

Unless recently changed studs at SPS still are trained to fly ELPs and have exposure to 4 graded SFLs. Why did the other bases stop teaching ELPs?


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[Bobsan]

It's part of the SUPT syllabus reduction (ENJJPT remains unchanged). ELPs are no longer on checkrides and are now more of a demo item.

[YoungnDumb]

6 hours ago, brabus said:

Why did they stop teaching ELPs? Part of the cutting sorties to save time/money, product quality be damned?

Columbus Commanders (yup throwing them under the bus) argued that we were wasting too much time on ELP's and that the T-6 was reliable enough not to warrant it, and since we weren't teaching ELP's, the students would learn regular patterns faster, therefore fewer sorties, faster production, and OPR strats out the a$$.  They also argued that not enough aircraft were single engine for the cost/benefit for each student to learn (I disagree since if you don't teach respect and proper handling of EP's early on you set the student up with with the wrong mindset from the get go).  Supposedly the Viper community was okay with this as I was told by my leadership that "it's not how you fly it in the Viper."  Which is BS, it's the same damn thing but now you base your altitudes off of fuel/stores weight.  

TL:DR-AF wanted to trim sorties and determined they'd rather lose a few aircraft than teach people to be safe.

[Boomer6]

10 minutes ago, YoungnDumb said:

 TL:DR-AF wanted to trim sorties and determined they'd rather green up slides than teach people to be pilots. 

Fixed. 

[isuguy1234]

See lots of SFOs and PFOs from 16s and 35s at Luke.  Maybe that'll change though with PTN/new T-6 studs.  When did teaching ELPs stop?

[di1630]

How many times since the T-6 has been in service has an ELP saved a plane? I doubt the effort we put into teaching it to students ever got payoff.




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[Majestik Møøse]

48 minutes ago, di1630 said:

How many times since the T-6 has been in service has an ELP saved a plane? I doubt the effort we put into teaching it to students ever got payoff.

There was a heinously bad chick in my T-6 flight. Somehow got through contact with luck, sort of made it through instruments, then washed out of low level phase because she still couldn’t fly an ELP on recovery.  So I’d argue that those failed ELPs saved a plane at some point in the future because she never flew it.

ELPs are a screener. Is it a required skill? Probably will never have to dip into that bucket of knowledge for real in your career. Do I want a guy in my squadron that can’t figure them out when 90% of everyone else does? Hell no.

[BashiChuni]

It’s basic energy management/stick and rudder skills. 

Even if they never use it lots to be gained teaching them to off the street 0 hour aviators

[di1630]

It’s basic energy management/stick and rudder skills. 

There are more productive and cheaper ways to teach these skills.

I heard the same objections when we took fix to fix out of the T-38 syllabus or when the USAF went from a twin jet T-37 to a single turboprop T-6.

The first time I did a SFO was after I had 2,700 in military jets...somehow I managed to get by for 15 years without that training.




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[Boomer6]

BFM is a waste too, when is the last time anyone even got a gun kill... 

[BashiChuni]

Doing a fix to fix is not the same as fundamentally learning energy management skills real time. Apples to oranges comparison. 

Dudes right off the street only benefit and increase their airmanship leaning how to fly ELPs. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by BashiChuni

[di1630]

Doing a fix to fix is not the same as fundamentally learning energy management skills real time. Apples to oranges comparison. 
Dudes right off the street only benefit and increase their airmanship leaning how to fly ELPs. 

I’ll argue that very few airframes need the EM skills one may learn from an ELP. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to learn, just that I think time could be spent elsewhere in T-6’s where most students haven’t tracked or will not go to planes that require superb EM skills.

As for BFM...Some of the guys jonesing for BFM like they are prepping for the Korean War I’ve flown with could probably spend that time working on improving skills where they are deficient on current and more probable mission sets....and they are deficient.

Not popular opinions I know. I did both an ELP and BFM yesterday...I could probably use a high intensity A/G scenario instead.




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[MooseAg03]

ELPs also teach decision making skills in an emergency scenario. The ability to analyze your energy state and decide if you can make high key, low key, or if you need to bail out. It’s been a bit, but I remember practicing this in the sim and having to go through it many times in stand up and table top EPs (turn climb clean check).

This decision making process works better when you have experience with the maneuver. Do they even teach it in the Sim or was it axed completely? If so, it sure makes your analyzing and decision making much easier - “EJECTION HANDLE - PULL”


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[Richard_Butte]

11 hours ago, isuguy1234 said:

  When did teaching ELPs stop?

19-02 (possibly 19-03) was the last class at Laughlin to get them on a transition checkride. No idea if its a demo/do now or if its even taught at all.

[Stitch]

10 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

It’s basic energy management/stick and rudder skills. 

Even if they never use it lots to be gained teaching them to off the street 0 hour aviators

Worked for this chick, a 16 year-old  working on her PPL loses the right MLG inner strut and tire on take-off for her first XC solo.  Lands safely without a scratch with only minor bending of the airplane...    https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/teen-pilot-training-loses-wheel-makes-emergency-landing-57749886

[Day Man]

1 hour ago, Stitch said:

Worked for this chick, a 16 year-old  working on her PPL loses the right MLG inner strut and tire on take-off for her first XC solo.  Lands safely without a scratch with only minor bending of the airplane...    https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/teen-pilot-training-loses-wheel-makes-emergency-landing-57749886

uhh...her engine was working bro.

[BashiChuni]

25 minutes ago, Day Man said:

uhh...her engine was working bro.

What do you know about a engine not working...or 4....

😉