T-38 Questions

[Guest WickedKiller]

I've used the search function, but my questions are more specific. I am curious about the backgrounds / flying hours for dudes who track select to the T-38. Specifically, do most T-38 guys have high hours (300+ or 1000+) and advanced ratings (instrument / commercial / aerobatic) before beginning UPT?

I'm reading these old posts which state track select is based on 40% checkrides, 30% daily rides, 20% commander ranking, 10% test scores. So, I’m thinking if someone aces the academics and has a great commander ranking it's not enough, 70% is pure situational awareness and ability to handle the Tweet / Texan. When I read just “bust you’re a**” and make sure your #1 in your class “and you’ll get what you want”, what exactly does that specifically involve in terms of check-rides and daily rides? What prevents guys from being selected for the T-38….poor attitude, ham-fisted flying, fuvking up aerodynamic maneuvers, not knowing emergency procedures / stand-ups...maybe poor academics…..??

Seems like the more flight experience / ratings a Type-A cold blooded killer has before starting UPT, the more chance he has of landing a T-38, assuming the guy is also sharp academically and athletic?

What are the backgrounds of dudes who were selected to fly the T-38?....attitude, flight hours, ratings, education, athletic?

The can is open, endow your knowledge upon me

Wicked

[TacAirCoug]

Originally posted by WickedKiller:

I've used the search function, but my questions are more specific. I am curious about the backgrounds / flying hours for dudes who track select to the T-38. Specifically, do most T-38 guys have high hours (300+ or 1000+) and advanced ratings (instrument / commercial / aerobatic) before beginning UPT?

The reason previous posts are not any more specific is because there is no way to be. There is no magic formula that will guarantee your success. I have a couple of friends who showed up to UPT with hundreds of hours, instrument ratings, and lots of confidence. Today, one flies F-16's, the other washed out pre-solo and flies a desk. On the flip side, I have other friends who showed up with only IFT for flight experience and ended up with a similar dichotomy.

When I read just “bust you’re a**” and make sure your #1 in your class “and you’ll get what you want”, what exactly does that specifically involve in terms of check-rides and daily rides?

It means what it says. Work hard and worry about the things you can control: Effort.

What prevents guys from being selected for the T-38….poor attitude, ham-fisted flying, fuvking up aerodynamic maneuvers, not knowing emergency procedures / stand-ups...maybe poor academics…..??

Yes.

Seems like the more flight experience / ratings a Type-A cold blooded killer has before starting UPT, the more chance he has of landing a T-38, assuming the guy is also sharp academically and athletic?

Again, from what I've seen, little to no correlation.

[ 11. October 2006, 15:35: Message edited by: TacAirCoug ]

[Guest Rage]

Originally posted by WickedKiller:

I'm reading these old posts which state track select is based on 40% checkrides, 30% daily rides, 20% commander ranking, 10% test scores. So, I’m thinking if someone aces the academics and has a great commander ranking it's not enough, 70% is pure situational awareness and ability to handle the Tweet / Texan. Wicked

I would sure as sh&t hope so...it should be more than 70%, after all we are in the business of flying jets here. you make your money by how you fly! ..not let's see who can do best on a multiple choice test and suck up to a flt/cc. sorry to be somewhat abrasive, but that is how i feel.

bottom line. most of the guys who track 38s in addition to gettin the better 70% on flying, also have their sh&t together in the academics and flt/cc ranking too. i agree with everything else that TacAirCoug has to say about the cross-section of experience that guys have coming into upt and how that effects things...

==Rage==

[C17Driver]

bottom line. most of the guys who track 38s in addition to gettin the better 70% on flying, also have their sh&t together in the academics...

Which makes sense. If you're thinking about what you should have been taught on the ground when you're up flying, then you aren't thinking about flying the jet.

And don't forget about TIMING!

[NUKE]

A quick question, does the AT-38's used at IFF have radar?

[Guest T38driver]

No

[Guest WickedKiller]

I appreciate the comments and input….

Effort…..as in half the class half-a**es, and the other half bust their balls for a T-38? How do UPT studs balance effort and required camaraderie (having a good time)? Anyone have any examples of what distinguished them, or guys who were top of their class, from their fellow students…have any examples of effort and going above and beyond the call to ensure you’re in the top 3? What document or guideline establishes the limits / tolerances / grading for the daily rides and check rides? From an IP or student perspective, is there a distinct difference in effort in a typical UPT class….some guys stay late till they get it, where other guys say screw it, I’ve had enough for today and going home to bang my wife? I realize some dudes don’t want a T-38. I have a friend who graduated number 4, wanted heavies, flies a C-5…he loves it, but he really doesn’t fit the “warrior type”. The guard fighter pilots I’ve met from 3 interviews (~50 pilots) say getting a T-38 in active duty is more luck than anything, with less drops based of fiscal allotment, and the AF moving towards UAVs. I guess I’m wondering the difference in character, work habits, effort, attitude..etc. between dudes who finish toward the top 4, and those who are in the middle bulk.

I’m possibly a fraction of a percent less a snap than before….I appreciate the help

[TacAirCoug]

Dude, you're asking for a definition that just can't be given. You might end up in a class full of slack a$$es or a class full of Chuck Yeager's. You can't control that, so why get your panties in a bunch over it? Like I said before, worry about the things you can control. Studying, chair flying, and being fully prepared every time you sit down with an IP and brief to fly.

When you show up on day one, there will be one thing made abundantly clear. Whatever you end up with, YOU have to earn. Are you really expecting someone to give you a laundry list of criteria that will guarantee you a 38? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that just isn't going to happen.

Your going to find that there isn't a whole lot of difference between the guys who fly big slow airplanes vs. those that fly little fast airplanes. They all got wings, and they ALL had to work hard to get them.

Relax, have a beer, and just be ready to do your part. Good luck.

[FourFans]

There is no "typical UPT class." There are only other classes and the class you are in. Every class has its on personality. In my experience, sadly, the classes that are populated by I-want-to-be-number-one dudes are generally the classes that suck to be around. However the classes with dudes that operate like a team at work and are best buds on their time off are generally the tighter classes that probably do better in the their drops.

Do your best, have a good attitude, and accept what you get. If you just so happen to be in a class full of prodegies, accept it and learn as much as you can from them.

Personal effort, Timing, and Attitude. Those are what impact where you go. Worrying about something you can't control will only distract and discourage you. Enough said on that.

Be wary of your understanding of the "warrior type." Not all fighter dudes are cold blood killer, and all heavy dudes are pedestrians. Combat pilots in general should be smart and deadly. I personally believe that fighter dudes should also be able to transform into unibrowed, fang toothed, knuckle dragging killers that live in a container labeled "Break in Case of War", however, experience tells me it's not always like that. On the contrary, just because the plane doesn't have a gun on it doesn't mean warriors don't reside there. I'm currently deployed with some dudes who have more warrior in their little finger than some of the fighter guys I've met. Just something to keep in mind.

Remember: It's all perspective.

FourFans

P.S. Make it two beers while you still can.

[ 11. October 2006, 23:02: Message edited by: FourFans130 ]

[Guest croftfam]

Check out How to be a fighter guy.com

:D

[Guest croftfam]

I'm just playing.

[HerkDerka]

Forget semantics.

Stay away from "What percent of T-38 guys have a private/instrument/commercial/aerobatic/balloon ticket and were valedictorians of their high school?"

There's one way to guarantee T-38s and the plane you want...finish first in your class.

UPT is designed to teach you how to be a pilot assuming zero previous experience.

Any edge anyone has quickly disappears after you start learning how to fly in the military. Sometimes advanced ratings can be a hinderance in that you may have developed bad habits patterns in the civilians world.

Work hard and don't worry about it.

HD

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Here's a good story...

I heard from a buddy of mine yesterday. He just returned from a conference and he had a funny story. He said he was talking about flying A-10s in Alaska with this crusty old ANG Lt Col Eagle driver. He said the Eagle guy was talking about how he got on O-2 out of UPT and his first assignment was in Alaska. They compared Alaska stories for a while and that was it, so he thought. For all you young guys, the very bottom min-FAR guy in UPT got O-2s. It was considered a bad deal because you had to fly a Cessna but 2.69 years later AFPC forgave all less than stellar UPT performance and gave those guys their jet of choice. There are/were many F-15C pilots who started out in the Oscar Duece.

Later, in the bar, the same Lt Col was telling some story about how he had to tell some heavy driver who was interested in becoming a fighter pilot in the Guard that "Maybe if you had done better in pilot training you would've gotten an Eagle."

What followed was a cascade of derisive laughter from all the Eagle drivers in the bar who considered their lofty position as the greatest cold blooded killer fighter pilots on the planet. Many of those guys were F-15C Guard Babies who had never competed for a flying assignment of any kind in their lives. None of them had every killed a man in combat. Not one. Zero. None of them had ever shot a weapon in anger. So what made them different than the heavy driver they were laughing about? The heavy guy had probably at least been shot at.

Were these Eagle guys totally full of shit? I would say yes, but that's just me.

FWIW, there is no magic formula for getting a fighter out of UPT if you are AD. Timing, Luck and Effort. You can only control the latter.

Good luck.

[Guest WickedKiller]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to my queep bull-shit questions. I guess things will work out the way they should.

Great story Rainman...got me thinking. I assume a snap would probably have more flying diversity, and get in the fight more in the active duty than in the guard, which is probably more important since he's a snap?

What is the deal with cross-flow between airframes...heavies to bombers/fighters? Do they open the gates once in a while and allow heavy pilots to apply for bombers or a T-38 track?...the back door T-38 / U-2 program is canned. I read an old post about the guard having a better cross-flow program to fighters than the active duty...is this even possible or bull-shit? The AF is always in a state of flux, so how often has this happened in the last 20 years. I do not want to become stuck to the big heavy tar-baby.

Fuvk-it, maybe I should just go join the Marines and shoot as many guns as I want.

Wicked

[CHS17]

Originally posted by WickedKiller:

...stuck to the big heavy tar-baby.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Someone please help me understand this. You mean you don't want to be a heavy pilot?

[Hacker]

Originally posted by WickedKiller:

What is the deal with cross-flow between airframes...heavies to bombers/fighters? Do they open the gates once in a while and allow heavy pilots to apply for bombers or a T-38 track?...the back door T-38 / U-2 program is canned.

The last fighter crossflow opportunity was in 1998/1999, and at the time they said it would not open again in the future. The reason is the SUPT pipeline, and the AF won't allow guys that went through the T-1 track to go to a fighter.

The U-2 method that you referred to was possible, but EXTREMELY limited, and as you said, gone now.

So, if you're a heavy guy that wants to fly fighters the only way it'll happen currently is through the ANG or Reserve.

[MD]

Originally posted by Rage:

I would sure as sh&t hope so...it should be more than 70%, after all we are in the business of flying jets here. you make your money by how you fly! ..not let's see who can do best on a multiple choice test and suck up to a flt/cc. sorry to be somewhat abrasive, but that is how i feel.

Oh how all that changes once you get out into the ops world. Those who fvck up and suck up, seem to move up. Those who kick ass, but are missing a masters degree...sucks to be you.

There are guys that can look great on paper and in their records, but I wouldn't want anywhere near my wing in combat....not even want in the AOR with me. There are too many "Z's" of the world, guys who are great at punching tickets, raving about SAS and pro's at power point, but have little other use, yet somehow keep moving up.

[ 12. October 2006, 16:03: Message edited by: MD ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

You know Z? Is he still alive? Don't tell me he actually got an operational command somewhere.

Ugh.

It goes to show that squares are importatnt.

FWIW, don't get trapped in the "either I can kick ass or I can take care of my squares" trap. Know the rules, fill the squares (no excuse for not getting a masters degree, sorry) and stay in the fight.

Typically, the no talent square fillers continue on but they do so in square filling positions like OSS/CC, FTU/CC or AOG/CC to get their squadron and group commands. That is not to say all OSS, FTU and AOG commanders are douchebags. I'm just saying it is common for douchebags to fill their command squares in less than front line units. Most of them want it that way.

There may not be many guys who can fill squares and kick ass but there are some. Be one of them.

[MD]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

You know Z? Is he still alive? Don't tell me he actually got an operational command somewhere.

Ugh.

He was trying to get the gig to take over as CC of Cope Thunder.....and wrote a full email resume to some general detailing his "capabilities". IIRC, I believe E.O. Osteen got the gig instead, so Z showed up at HMN.

[scoobs]

Is being a Guard baby a bad thing?

[Guest kottlows]

Originally posted by WickedKiller:

Anyone have any examples of what distinguished them, or guys who were top of their class, from their fellow students…have any examples of effort and going above and beyond the call to ensure you’re in the top 3?

The top 3 (only 3 T-38s in our drop) in our class either:

1. Got a 0-O (Zero downgrade outstanding) on a check ride

2. Had less than 14 total downgrades in Phase 1

or

3. Was the only one in the top half of his flight to want T-38s --> got the top FLT/CC recommendation from a Viper dude

So yes, being no $hit #1 is the only way to get what you want at track select. The rest is timing, luck and effort as mentioned.

[Skitzo]

It's really not worth it to worry about all this crap. I really wanted to go -38's and be a fighter pilot, pissed off a lot of people in Phase II because of that, ended up going to -38's and washing out of IFF. Not for any other reason other than it wasn't meant to be, I didn't have the ability I needed to complete the program within the required constraints. Just because you have x,y,z doesn't mean you are going to get a -38 and just because you get a -38 doesn't mean you are going to graduate and even if you do graduate with a fighter assignment doesn't mean you are going to make it, hell you can be top shit and then washout due to a medical/G issues.

I understand that you want to know about all your options but this topic has been discussed to death, play nicely, study hard, shut up and color, maybe you'll make it, maybe you won't. Just make sure that it won't be for a lack of trying. If you don't achieve your dreams, realize that maybe the instructors that teach you might have seen you better than you see yourself, it sucks to be that guy, to face the reality that you aren't the right person for this job but it's good at the same time that the process exists, I'd rather be an asset than a liability.

[Guest thefranchise]

I was able to talk with the AETC OG during a class this month. He brought up the fact the grading with the MIF scale has become way too unrealiable, especially since some IPs cant figure out how to grade on a standardized scale. He was putting together a proposal for the new General to change the way the AF does track selects; they have been reviewing the last couple years of phase 1 syllabus and are seeing the AF UPT program is routinly tracking the talent to wrong tracks all b/c we are using a grading scale and desire and not reality. simply and often, you get guys who track 38s b/c their assigned IP was Santa who have no business in single seat role but get it b/c they outrank their class VS a stud who flies with Maj Hardass and below MIFs a guy constantly just to show "progression" (which is a poor and non-authorized grading practice) and that kid finishes in the middle of his track select and while hot shit ends up in Tones. Considering the amount of $ that is involved in Phase 3, IFF, RTU, etc its a serious money matter to send the wrong person into a career they arent meant for.

the plan is to essentially limit the grade power for ranking and leaving it up to the IPs, Flight Commanders and sq commanders to determine who get 38s, 1s, and 44s and letting the grades jsut be grades and limit their influence. This will surely create its own issues but its def a step in the right direction IMO. We were told to maybe expect some sort of change maybe next year

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

The U-2 method that you referred to was possible, but EXTREMELY limited, and as you said, gone now.

Not so...

2 C-21 guys from Ramstein got into the program within the last 4 months, and 2 guys who FAIP'd (one in my class, the other 4 classes behind) just got picked up as well.

I'm not 100% up to speed on the process, but know quite a few guys from Akrotiri, as well as those folks who just got selected if anyone wants names.

//copied from// U-2 Application Info

U-2 Assignments

11R3J/12R3Y

Squadron 99 RS

1 RS (FTU)

Phone # 368-8464 / 368-4447 / 368-8187

First Assignment Instructor Pilots (FAIP)!! If you are a FAIP and are approaching the end of the second year of your FAIP tour and will have at least 800 hours of flying time, you may be allowed to compete for a U-2 pilot slot. It is critical that you call as soon as you are interested. Realistically, you need to send Beale a package almost a year before the end of your FAIP tour in order to make the timing work. If you already have orders for your follow-on training, we will not allow you to compete.

U-2 Mission Planner and Operation Support Squadron (OSS) Slots Open! Beale is constantly looking for navs to fill OSS and Mission Planner billets. Call for current availability and check AF Assignment System (AFAS) for listings.

AFPC Is Allowing Fighter Pilots to Compete for U-2s!! The fighter weapon system resource managers will consider those pilots who volunteer for releasability and you will still have to submit a package to Beale for review and possible interview. Please call if you have questions about this opportunity.

Who can apply?

You must have:

1. 800 hours total as a Instructor Pilot/First Pilot (IP/FP) in jet or turbo aircraft (or possess at least 1300 total in jet)

2. 15 months as pilot in command

3. 500 hours of fixed wing

A package and an interview required; after you put U-2 as the #1 choice on your Transitional-Officer Development Plan (T-ODP) on the Assignment Management System (AMS) Web, you must contact Beale and send a package to be considered. The Beale web page contains information on the hiring process. You can also visit their recruiting page on the web.

Don't worry about the class start dates. If you are interested and eligible, apply immediately with all the required items listed above. Your class start date will be discussed when you interview. Beale will put you in the earliest class that is compatible with your move schedule.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

^^^^^

Forgot to mention....

I'm not sure if there is a "heavy" crossflow into the program. Everyone that I know was doing their "white-jet" tour...but a few PQP's were accepted for sure.