Taking back the AF

[Guest pcampbell]

Recently, I had an interesting discussion with a future OG regarding the future of the Air Force, in general. It should be known that this guy is a career fighter pilot.

His philosophy is this: in order to take back our Air Force, we have to be willing to play it's game. He argues that too many aviators are shying away from staff jobs that will help them become the generals of the future. He sees too many current senior officers taking non-rated dudes on their staffs because the SO can't get any aviators to join the staff. The future OG notes that one indication of the aviator losing his foothold in command positions is the creation of the maintenance group. Soon, the Colonel says, we will see non-rated officers as wing commanders of flying wings and even a non-rated chief of staff.

As the aviation community, we have to be willing to get out of the cockpit to keep the rest of the Air Force focused on the mission, the Colonel noted.

I have stated on this board previously that I don't think we will ever see a non-rated guy become CSAF. I even argued that we will never see a non-fighter/bomber aviator as CSAF. The discussion with the Colonel enlightened me. He made strong arguments for bringing back warrant officers to satisfy the multitude of people that are getting commissions "just to fly." He actually used the terminology, "wasting their commission on being a specialist." To further my enlightenment, I met an Army aviator this weekend at an air show. He told me that he is in command of about 120 people, as a 1Lt. His unit has warrant officers that are the "technical and tactical experts." Every instructor pilot in his unit is a warrant. This allows his unit's commissioned officers to focus on the administrative workings of the battalion.

I opine, in order to take back our Air Force, we need to be officers first, instead of pilots/navigators/ABMs first. We shouldn't complain about having to go to ASBC, SOS, or whatever PME you want to complain about. We should go running, and raise hell about how the shoe clerk is ruining the most powerful military force on the planet.

I've read several times on this board about how people are so impressed with Marine Officers.

You know why they are so impressive?

1. They love the Corps. They know it's broken at times, but they want to fix it.

2. They are the (for the most part) supreme examples of what a young Marine should be. They shave their faces on the weekend when they wake up so the young E-2 knows that his Lt is a Marine 24/7. And that is what the young Private wants to be.

3. They are Marines first, Officers second, and if they are lucky enough, they can call themselves Naval Aviators.

Do you think Marines have some message board where they would make a general statement about how impressive Air Force officers are? Many of us on the board are young in rank, it starts with us. Quit whining about how you don't like how things are run and start fixing it.

Bring on the sarcasm, bring on the childish banter...better yet, prove to me that we actually have some flesh that is worth the millions our government put into it. Be a friggin officer...

Edited for spelling.

[ 14. May 2006, 23:04: Message edited by: Razorback ]

[Guest AirGuardian]

Interesting stuff...

Glad our GUARD unit won't be following that line of thought (the putting others in charge deal), at least until well after my retirement - or something goes ugly if you know what I mean and we get punished that way...

If it happens in the Guard, it's because someone pissed someone off higher above them in some way (Right or Wrong, Good or Bad) and there are repercussions for various transgressions - ie - (edited) and many more... I'm sure we've all seen things happen if you've been part of this Total Force for at least for some time now...

This babble was not an excuse NOT to be an Officer, it was a hooray that the AD will show us how it's done first, how it fails miserably and how we will delay things long enough not to be a part of it - I HOPE!

For the younger ones around - REMEMBER THE FITNESS CYCLE!!! Ha... ha...h..

Now go do, that voodoo, that you do, so well, you friggn Officers out there... Try and clean up TACC Officer Retirement Backflow Blue to Gray program if you can FIRST... That I would appreciate!

[ 14. May 2006, 23:35: Message edited by: AirGuardian ]

[Guest pcampbell]

Originally posted by 123abc:

I say privatize all the active duty officers and enlisted out there that aren't in the job of killing or provide direct support (all aircraft and aircrews, crew chiefs, maintenance, life support, some medical personnel, and a few cops) to the warfighters.

Bad call. Did you hear about what's going on at Sheppard right now? LSI is on strike. GI's aren't allowed to go on strike.

Originally posted by 123abc:

Do that, and then you might start seeing some change in how officers are.

I disagree, officers are the ones that need to make the change. That is the entire reason for having officers. We ARE in charge. We need to start acting like it.

Edited for spelling, again.

[ 15. May 2006, 00:25: Message edited by: Razorback ]

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

I know too many officers from the Marines, and Marine Corps,

I think we have them beat when it comes to brains

Yeah. No doubt.

He obviously knows more than me.

That's a safe bet.

[Guest Robes]

I do not know how many people have seen this. I do not know who wrote it, but I was given this the day before I was commissioned:

FIRST AN OFFICER

On 16 July 1982, I stood by the pool in my backyard and took the Oath. My wife held the American flag while a friend, who was a Lt Cmdr in the Naval Reserves, administered the Oath. I now realize, when I said those words, a process began which would change my basic value system and my attitude about being an USAF officer.

I joined the Air Force for a variety of reasons, but basically, I wanted to enhance my career as a professional entomologist. The Air Force offered a lucrative way to do this. Nothing during my first year indicated my goal was about to change. Then, I read the following report by a Navy Medical Entomologist, who was in Beirut when terrorists bombed the Marine Corps Barracks:

____________________________________________________________________

We were all waking up Sunday morning when what we at the Medical Services Group (MSSG) building thought was a direct hit slammed us into the practiced routine of running to our “condition one” shelters. All the doors in our building were either blown apart or off their hinges followed by a sky darkening fog of dust and cordite. Five minutes later as dust still choked the air, we were told to “prepare for mass casualties – the BLT building is flat”. In an alert daze helped along by adrenaline we, the medical personnel at MSSG, split into two groups. A dentist and four corpsmen rushed to the BLT site to triage and treat, and the rest of us (10 including us) stayed at the MSSG to receive, triage and treat the casualties sent to us. The only physician ashore was killed, and all the 26 H&S Co BLT corpsmen were either on liberty, wounded or killed. In 55 minutes, our little group received 48 casualties of every type and class of laceration or crushing trauma. In that short time, 13 of our patients died before being hurriedly treated and loaded into vehicles for the continuous shuttle to medevac helos to the IWO blood drenched cots and blankets and 13 bodies. We received a blistering call from the MAU HQ to stop sending bodies to the medevac Landing Zone (LZ) and start sending “less serious” patients. We replied that we had no “less serious” patients and that they were all alive when they left our area. Other civilian medical teams were soon on the scene and were sifting through the bodies blown further away and sending them to various local hospitals. One kid was pulled out of a tree 200 yards away, and a lot of feet, hands and legs were also collected from that radius. The kid in the tree lived.

The scene of the bomb site looked like a fictional picture of a nuclear blast site. All of the trees within 200 yards were stripped of vegetation or uprooted. Jeeps and trucks parked nearby were reduced to twisted, mangled trash. Not a single square foot for 500 yards was free of blast debris. Screams and moans continued from inside the rubble until the last living victim was pulled out in the early afternoon. Appropriately it was the chaplain.

I lived two days that morning. By early afternoon we ran up a total of 130 dead all moved to a hangar at the medevac LZ. Only about 20 had body bags. The rest were covered mainly with camouflaged poncho liners. Medical leadership finally fell to the preventive medicine team as we were the senior medical personnel left. The MSSG Medical Detachment commander freakishly had a concrete block blown down by the blast onto his head. He collapsed and was medevaced. Our first act following the casualties was to have all the pools of blood cleaned up and all the unserviceable blood soaked cots, blankets, ect. Bagged and burned. By 1800, I had 160 bodies to deal with. Fortunately by then only 30 were either not in a transfer case or body bag. Several Marines easily fit into the 30 gallon size garbage bags. Flies were and are still not a problem as we keep the outside of the bags and containers clean and adequately treated.

I met each medevac plane as it arrived and served as a coordinating liaison for the frightened, uninformed and eager medical crews. I literally commandeered two physicians off each of the first two C9 Nightingales and sent them to the IWO JIMA to help with the 60 plus WIA’s awaiting treatment or surgery. Another 141 medevac flight arrived at 1800 and took the remainder of our transportable WIA’s while we were taking perimeter sniper and mortar fire. All the medical crews were very professional “once” the patients arrived. Fortunately, my dual role of MAU Surgeon and PMO ended with the arrival of the Air Alert Forces. They brought two physicians. Unexpectedly, one was a LCdr who was a former Marine Artillery officer. After a short introductory period I literally dumped the MAU Surgeon role on his shoulders. Ironically, Lt Col GERLACH, Blt Co, survived the blast. He was thrown 80 yards out of his second story room and is doing very well considering his skull fracture and multiple-fractures of his left arm and right leg. He was also shot through both lungs and legs in Vietnam. I think he should retire.

You would not recognize this place. It is a depressing, ominously foreboding fortress of dirt walls and concertina wire. This deployment has been an exhausting experience for every one. It was actually three separate deployments: 1) the holiday resort “in garrison” atmosphere of the first two months, 2) the continuous tension, fear and lack of sleep during the days of September and early October (over 5000 rounds of artillery or rocket fire fell in our perimeter), and 3) the emotionally scarred period of helplessness following the devastation from the bombing.

I am tired, sorrowful and much older. I will never forget all those blue-gray, mangled, dismembered, mannequin-like bodies being zipped up in body bags. Ironically, the thing I will remember the most is how brilliant and almost radiant all their tattoos were contrasted against their blue, dusty, cyanotic skin. We are all ready to go home.

_______________________________________________________________________

The report stuck in my mind, I couldn’t stop thinking about it. One particular quotation haunted me; “medical leadership finally fell to the preventive medicine team as we were the senior medical personnel left.” I couldn’t help believe, one day, “…the senior medical personnel left.” could be me. I could be thrust into a leadership role I wasn’t prepared for: a role of managing violence at the receiving end. I recognized then, I wasn’t a Medical Entomologist working for the USAF but rather, a professional USAF officer, whose specialty was Medical Entomology. Since then I’ve sought out every opportunity to develop my officership skills, skills I’ll need when it’s my turn to provide leadership. Skills which are painstakingly acquired only through study, practice and association with other professional officers. SOS provides this and is probably the only PME course I’ll have an opportunity to attend in residence. Many people are making sacrifices so I can be here and I won’t waste one precious minute.

Just some food for thought.

Robes

Edit: Spelling... come on I had to retype the darn thing!

[ 15. May 2006, 00:30: Message edited by: Robes ]

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

Sorry. Couldn't help but notice your naive statements.

[Guest SuperStallionIP]

No worries. It's a sterotype that has been around far longer than you or me. Regardless...damn nice post Razorback. You hit the nail about what priorities should be. Well said.

[ 15. May 2006, 00:59: Message edited by: BigIron ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by 123abc:

I say privatize all the active duty officers and enlisted out there that aren't in the job of killing or provide direct support (all aircraft and aircrews, crew chiefs, maintenance, life support, some medical personnel, and a few cops)

I disagree completely.

Privatization and contracting is part of what is killing our Air Force.

It used to be if you screwed up, you went on KP. Now if you screw up, you get a counseling and sign a "statement of understanding" about your duties as an airman. We can't give you KP because we have one-eyed retards taking care of that.

Once we reinstate the discipline of a military unit we just might start looking/acting like one.

I'm tired of hearing terms like "Oh, that's an alcohol-related incident!!!! We'll be sending you to life skills to assess your dependency and then you'll be receiveing an Article 15, so your career is pretty much done."

Am I the only one who thinks you learn through experience? If you screw up, and the boss tearing a serious hunk out of your butt, but doesn't kill your career, I think you'll learn your lesson and apply it later on down the line.

This one-mistake AF is bullshit.

Here's a thought....whatever happened to a good old-fashioned butt-chewing? Now we have counselings, meetings, awareness, and gayness.

(If the post is a little incoherent, blame Mr. Jack)

HD

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Razorback:

I opine, in order to take back our Air Force, we need to be officers first

Originally posted by Razorback:

They are Marines first, Officers second, and if they are lucky enough, they can call themselves Naval Aviators.

So which is it? Officers first or not?

One a separate note I agree with what you're saying. However, I think the only thing that will EVER change this AF back is a full-scale drawn-out war. I don't mean kick Iraq's ass, take down all of the airfields, and then start planting shoe clerks in theater so they feel like they're "in the fight".

I mean full-out war where we are actually building shore defenses on our coastlines.

I hope it never happens. I'll deal with the shitty AF we live in to keep from losing 100,000+ soldiers' lives. But if it comes, I'll be there to resupply the SOF and bring the grunts their logs of Cope and copies of Maxim.

Your thoughts?

HD

[Guest KoolKat]

Originally posted by HD:

Your thoughts?

Cope, Maxims & MOABs.

Originally posted by Razorback:

Recently, I had an interesting discussion

Sounds like it.

Originally posted by Razorback:

Soon, the Colonel says, we will see non-rated officers as wing commanders of flying wings and even a non-rated chief of staff.

The discussion with the Colonel enlightened me.

This one discussion swayed your opinion? Or am I taking that out of context?

Originally posted by 123abc:

I say privatize all the active duty officers and enlisted out there that aren't in the job of killing or provide direct support (all aircraft and aircrews, crew chiefs, maintenance, life support, some medical personnel, and a few cops) to the warfighters.

Man, I wanna cut loose on this idea. For better or worse to anyone that's gonna read this later, it's far to early and if I got started, I'd probably be late for my 0540 showtime.

Originally posted by Razorback:

We should go running, and raise hell about how the shoe clerk is ruining the most powerful military force on the planet.

You still don't want the job though, do you? :D

I kid, I kid...your reason was a pretty valid one, IIRC. ;)

Good Post, Razor.

(One more ride & a Check! Woohoo! :D )

BENDY

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Razorback, where are you stationed?

[FourFans]

"The most important thing I learned is that soldiers watch what their leaders do. You can give them classes and lecture them forever, but it is your personal example they will follow."

- General Colin Powell

When our leaders are doing this during time of war, what do you expect from the service they lead.

...and yes...I dusted off contrails for that quote...

[M2]

Originally posted by Razorback:

Soon, the Colonel says, we will see non-rated officers as wing commanders of flying wings...

Not soon, now. MG Koziol previously commanded the 55th Wing, the largest wing in ACC and second largest in the USAF. The squadrons under his command were:

38th RS (RC-135)

45th RS (OC-135/RC-135/WC-135)

82nd RS (RC-135)

95th RS (RC-135) — RAF Mildenhall, United Kingdom

343rd RS (RC-135)

338th CTS (RC/OC-135)

1st ACCS (E-4B)

97th IS

Koziol has non-rated officer aircrew wings from when he was the commander of the 488th Intelligence Squadron (RJs) at Mildenhall.

Cheers! M2

[zrooster99]

Skills which are painstakingly acquired only through study, practice and association with other professional officers.

I'll buy that. I'm not sure what your background is, but in my experience the only way to hone your leadership skills is to practice it...daily.

ABC, I'm not sure of your background either, or exactly who you mean by "shoe clerks", but as others have said, privatization is one of the things killing our Air Force. In my opinion, the more we try to make it look like a corporation, the more we lose our identity as a military force. What we need to do is to embrace the old school values of discipline, accountability and sacrifice. As leaders we need to set the example and lead from the front (i.e. show your willingness to do those things that you ask of others). In short, go back to the basics.

Razorback, I think you have some good thoughts, but I could not agree less that the answer is more careerism...

[ 15. May 2006, 22:17: Message edited by: zrooster99 ]

[Guest pcampbell]

Originally posted by HerkDerka:

So which is it? Officers first or not?

I see the paradox, perhaps I can say that we should be Airmen first. But what is an Airman? When someone uses the word "Marine" we think of a warrior. What do we think when we hear the term Airman?

Originally posted by HerkDerka:

I hope it never happens. I'll deal with the shitty AF we live in to keep from losing 100,000+ soldiers' lives. But if it comes, I'll be there to resupply the SOF and bring the grunts their logs of Cope and copies of Maxim.

I agree, except I'll be there with 30MM party mix and cluster munitions.

Originally posted by Bender:

This one discussion swayed your opinion?

Negative, this discussion coupled with recents threads on this board and discussions with other aviators this weekend.

Originally posted by Bender:

You still don't want the job though, do you?

The job of a shoe clerk? No. If you're referring to previous discussions of mine, I'm thinking about it. I'm old in age and young in rank. It's a bad combination.

Orginally posted by Rainman A-10:

Razorback, where are you stationed?

KBAD, proceeding to Popedosta, with a RNLTD of 15 July.

Originally posted by zrooster99:

...but I could not agree less that the answer is more careerism...

I think this is half the problem. What is careerism? If I'm motivated to try to make a better Air Force, to command a squadron, group or wing, am I a careerist? If I take jobs that take me out of the cockpit to broaden my experiences and perhaps make me a better DO or CC one day, I'm doing something good for the future of the USAF. Now, if it is viewed that the only reason I leave the cockpit is to make rank, like we so often accuse people of, or if it's perceived that I've squashed people to get there, that is what I call careerism.

My point is this...we need warriors to become generals. We can't get back to being a military if we don't get the guys in the important positions that know how to bring hell down on the enemy.

Edited to respond to Rooster.

[ 15. May 2006, 08:56: Message edited by: Razorback ]

[Guest Hydro130]

Amen Chuck!

Preach on brother!

Hydro

[Guest JArcher00]

Chuck...I agree with all you said with a little change.

The problem I see and try to stop myself sometimes from falling off the edge of the cliff sometimes, is that at least in my view of the -130 world as limited as it is so far, maybe it is a guard thing versus AD but it is hard to become a master of your trade when in the real world of flying ops for me, people are flying and doing things the "books" say not to do. I am in wthe desert right now again and see it every other day. It seems like it is getting worse than it was when I was here a few months ago. Be master of stuff at least in my world, you are never going to do in a real world event outside of currency requirments.....formation....airdrop (possible but not likely) Lets not even begin to talk about flying against a threat. Those that may be reading this in the desert right now know what I am talking about. I won't get into it here but people need to grow some balls and say NO to the $hit they are asking us to do in certain areas of the AOR. To those who may be too scared to rock the boat and say no I'll hold, don't accept $hit because you are afraid you won't complete the mission, someone else if going later anyway. The empty sand bags in the back are not that important as the case of dvds to get to the bx. Sorry for the rambling. I

know some are go to say one you will be prepared when you need the formation/airdrop/etc but I think a fighter is more likely to actually shot down another aircraft before that day comes for me.

[ 15. May 2006, 10:36: Message edited by: RedDog ]

[Guest Hydro130]

RedDog,

I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say.

I think your first point is that rules are bent in combat, is that right? Hell yes they are. Always have been always will be. It's the leadership's responsibility to set appropriate boundaries. The classic example is when OEF kicked off and the Herks were needing to land on nogs to black-out airfields for no-sh!t safety reasons. That got AMC's attention quick and kick-started a LONG overdue NVG Airland program...

Is your second point that we waste too much time on training items like formation and airdrop? If so, see below; if not, please clarify... Thanks...

I did one combat airdrop (single-ship) a year ago the last time I was in OEF. It was a 16-bundle mass CDS with 2-ship A-10 escort, 9-line drop to a tactical DZ at 10K MSL, ~800 AGL in support of SOF on the move. That was pretty sporty... JRTC experience in effect!

We were cranking for a second airdrop mish, but had to CNX for MX.

Airdrops were happening regularly at that time in OEF.

Oh, and hitting dirt LZs on at least every other mish on that rote was "the heat"! :D

Also in early 04, The Deid supported Op All-American Lightning, which was a Herk 3-ship show-of-force airdrop dropping the 82d AB right around Al Taq :eek: . I just helped mish-plan that one, but that was pretty damn cool to see happen...

Hydro

[Guest thebronze]

Here's a thought....whatever happened to a good old-fashioned butt-chewing? Now we have counselings, meetings, awareness, and gayness.

Because there aren't very many "Leaders" in the AF.

You can't even yell at anyone in the AF anymore or call them on their stupidity. If you do, YOU'RE the "bad guy".

How serious can you take (a supposed) warfighting organization, when you can't even yell at anyone?

Reason #1,769 why we're the laughing-stock of the U.S. Military...

[Guest JArcher00]

Fair enough that things went on at the start. Mabye I am pissed we...I am not getting to do the stuff we train for and feel like I am back at my airline. I am not talking about breaking rules or bending them. I agree that you do what is needed to get it done. I am talking about mabye not being able to do what we are taught.... they want you to put landing lights on 1 mile out.....come on...here I am. I am talking about accepting clearances that the "books" recommend you avoid in this new "system" they are running...this is not JFK or Ohare. We are taught about tacical arrivals and "departures" there is nothing tactically sound about what is going on Safety? I know there is still hot airspace but if an F-15/16/tornado can fly finger tip formation...you would think they could manage to stay away from a -130 for a 10 minute climb through the airspace. My OEF experience is little compared to OIF right now. Only been up there a handfull of times in the past. Mabye they are doing more than I know regarding airdrop in OEF. I would be shocked if you said there was more than that 1 or 2 formation flights . I stand corrected. I was not talkiing about the NVG airland stuff...But the stuff we are flying now feels like my airline.

[ 15. May 2006, 11:44: Message edited by: RedDog ]

[Guest Hydro130]

Thanks for the clarification.

Definitely understand what you are saying with crap like the landing light restrictions. Sounds like the CAOC/AMD is once again moving in the wrong direction tactically in the name of non-combat-esque "safety"... That sucks.

OIF has always been run with much more gayness because of The Deid being right there in the backyard... OEF has traditionally had more of a "go get the mish done safely" perspective in comparison. That's not to imply it's Cowboy Ops out there - it's not, just more laid back...

I was fortunate to have the best leadership possible when I was at K2 (ANG dudes) -- I never had to doubt those guys would back me up 100% if I bent rules within the constraints of safety and common sense -- and my crew and I certainly did that regularly in order to successfully hack the mish. I would tell the CC about everything when I got back home in case 'something' got back to him and EVERY time he said, "Great job, no worries. That's exactly what I would've done too".

OIF is a different story, you are very correct. Qweep central. Everyone is out to break your balls about something.

Sorry for the mis-interpret on your earlier post, best of luck!

Cheers, Hydro

EDIT: spelling boofs

[ 15. May 2006, 16:28: Message edited by: Hydro130 ]

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by RedDog:

Be master of stuff at least in my world, you are never going to do in a real world event outside of currency requirments.....formation....airdrop (possible but not likely)

Grenada, Panama, Haiti, OEF, OIF, OEF-HOA.

All recent campaigns that have included mass personnel drops and CDS resupply.

We may not be dropping as much now as we were at the kickoff of OIF, but the thing you need to remember as a Tac Airlifter is that it's your job to maintain your proficiency in these skills so that we can offer this capability to the combatant commanders.

Do the pointy noses stop working their BFM requirements since they aren't facing an air threat in the box?? No.

HD

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Razorback:

What do we think when we hear the term Airman?

The Sport of Kings...and Leavenworth.

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by RedDog:

people are flying and doing things the "books" say not to do.

To those who may be too scared to rock the boat and say no I'll hold, don't accept $hit because you are afraid you won't complete the mission

Yeah someone IS going in later that day...and if you were to complete your frag, you just might prevent your buddy from having to fly into the same field to drop off the cargo that you couldn't deliver.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying. But as a Tac Airlifter you need to be hacking the mission and bending the rules is a part of it. It also means knowing when to press and when to throttle back. There are times for both. What's in the back might not seem important to you, but it might be damn important to someone on the ground.

HD

[Guest JArcher00]

You obviously have not been here since the new hub-n-spoke, so I think you are a little out of the loop on what goes in and out and you making it in will not make a damn bit of difference if your buddy has to go in after. I guess I wish the guard was a little different than AD in some sorts. You have all month to figure out how to get your currency accomplished. I have a week or two. Did I sign up for this...YES...Do I agree with it...NO. That is life. You are probably the one accepting the spiral up to get the mission done...right? If you have been here in the last 2 months then I disagree with your theory of gettin the job done and feel bad for the crew you are flying with accepting some of these clearances. One does not years of experience to know what is written in english in supposed tactics books. Your lack of knowledge of the current environment is obviously shown in the statement above. Open up a USA Today and they will spell out what the hub-n spoke system is now since the higher powers at be seem to think it is so wise. Tell me is it wise to have a plane come in and land even though they are not offloading anything and C2 says they are not onloading anything due to them being full already going to the next stop....Most educated people would say carry on to the next stop....well, C2 seems to think we need to land...taxi back to departure end and takeoff. Saying b.s....well that is exeactly what happened a few days ago. So tell me HerkDerka...do I have it wrong? O wise one

[ 15. May 2006, 16:32: Message edited by: RedDog ]