Hurricane Michael

[Buddy Spike]

57 minutes ago, SUX said:

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Raptors-Wrecked-By-Michael-231675-1.html

They are reporting that 22 F-22's were damaged or destroyed by the storm.  

Fake news.

[ThreeHoler]

I’ll take things we shouldn’t speculate on for $100, Alex.


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[uhhello]

13 minutes ago, Hopefulflyer389 said:

Dumb question, but are these planes insured? 

Nothing government is insured as far as I know. 

[SurelySerious]

14 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Was awesome to see my brothers and sisters from AFSOC giving a rapid full court press to help Tyndall out.

It looks like they’ve been putting in good work through the weekend, too. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by SurelySerious
Observation over weekend

[viper154]

Only would work for bases with water access but what about a ramp to a dock and a specially made barge to secure the aircraft to. Would probably only need 1 or 2, just to get the jets that aren’t flyable out. Figure 12 hours from notification to tow the jets and get them loaded. Not a boat expert but I would think 12-24 hours after that would leave enough time to tow the barge to another base on the water or a port that’s at least out of the devastating winds of the eye. 

I was thinking about the comment made earlier about trucking them out,  I would guess that in theory you could probably crane a jet onto a flat bed, bigger issue would be clearance iof wings and vertical stabs, also would a police escort, take up most the road, and add serious congestion to the evac routes. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by viper154

[Lawman]

Only would work for bases with water access but what about a ramp to a dock and a specially made barge to secure the aircraft to. Would probably only need 1 or 2, just to get the jets that aren’t flyable out. Figure 12 hours from notification to tow the jets and get them loaded. Not a boat expert but I would think 12-24 hours after that would leave enough time to tow the barge to another base on the water or a port that’s at least out of the devastating winds of the eye. 
I was thinking about the comment made earlier about trucking them out,  I would guess that in theory you could probably crane a jet onto a flat bed, bigger issue would be clearance iof wings and vertical stabs, also would a police escort, take up most the road, and add serious congestion to the evac routes. 

No personal offense... it’s a terrible idea.

As the storm comes closer inland and gets over shallower waters the rise and fall in sea state increases drastically. This would be where any commercial cargo barge or slow wide flat decked ship you could crane and lash airplanes too would be. Boats don’t push inland during storms for good reason, unless you’re in a harbor that gives protection you’re better off out to sea where the wave action is less eventful running pumps wide open.

Add to that a vessel like that isn’t made to go fast, so unless you’re keeping it at the place for a rainy day (bad pun unintentional) it’s very unlikely by the time you’d recognize the danger and issue the order to move it would get to you, get loaded, and get clear.




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[Buddy Spike]

15 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 

No personal offense... it’s a terrible idea.

As the storm comes closer inland and gets over shallower waters the rise and fall in sea state increases drastically. This would be where any commercial cargo barge or slow wide flat decked ship you could crane and lash airplanes too would be. Boats don’t push inland during storms for good reason, unless you’re in a harbor that gives protection you’re better off out to sea where the wave action is less eventful running pumps wide open.

Add to that a vessel like that isn’t made to go fast, so unless you’re keeping it at the place for a rainy day (bad pun unintentional) it’s very unlikely by the time you’d recognize the danger and issue the order to move it would get to you, get loaded, and get clear.




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Could a Chinook sling load a 50k lb jet and if so how far?  

[Lawman]

34 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Could a Chinook sling load a 50k lb jet and if so how far?  

About 20-30k lbs over any reasonable slingload. 

53K is the heavyweight champion for sling load, and even it barely trips the 30k mark. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Lawman

[Buddy Spike]

2 minutes ago, Lawman said:

About 20k lbs over any reasonable slingload. 

 

Rog. Not a whole lot of other options other than taking them apart and shoving a few in C-5s or AN-225s.  

[uhhello]

10 minutes ago, Lawman said:

About 20-30k lbs over any reasonable slingload. 

53K is the heavyweight champion for sling load, and even it barely trips the 30k mark. 

MI-26 is a bit over 40k but still not even close to enough barring major stripping mods

[Lawman]

12 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Rog. Not a whole lot of other options other than taking them apart and shoving a few in C-5s or AN-225s.  

Yeah looking at this if we’re thinking “are we taking an unnecessary risk” I think the smart Lowest cost highest payoff universal move is building on site protection. 

HAS, Purpose built hangers, whatever... I think this might make a military that has 20 silver bullets parked in Missouri that cannot be replaced go “hey maybe I can spend some cash on a better garage for my stuff.”

 

for the cost of 1 B-2 or 2-3 Raptors..... what could you build...

Edited October 15, 2018 by Lawman

[Lawman]

1 minute ago, uhhello said:

MI-26 is a bit over 40k but still not even close to enough barring major stripping mods

Yeah I was just going off what was here and active stateside. 

Even if that monster could lift a Raptor it doesn’t help if it requires us to take it apart and move it here with 1 of a dozen available AN-124 charters.

[uhhello]

Why hasn't the coastal areas taken the far east approach to the annual storms they deal with.  You go to okinawa and everything is cement or the equivalent.  I was at Tyndall for first assignment and we hangared 2-3 times for pending storms.   We would put 10-20 F-15s in the available hangars and head to the dorms to party.  

[MooseAg03]

No one is arguing that these jets take a lot of maintenance or that this is the reality for tactical jets. But saying “this is how it’s always been done, sorry we weren’t able to hurrivac 10% of our nation’s premiere 5th gen aircraft” and going on business as usual can’t continue. Maybe it’s not such a smart thing to have aircraft disassembled in phase checks on the Florida panhandle during hurricane season.

When you purchase a fraction of the fleet size needed, you can’t treat these aircraft like every other fighter fleet.


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[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

No one is arguing that these jets take a lot of maintenance or that this is the reality for tactical jets. But saying “this is how it’s always been done, sorry we weren’t able to hurrivac 10% of our nation’s premiere 5th gen aircraft” and going on business as usual can’t continue. Maybe it’s not such a smart thing to have aircraft disassembled in phase checks on the Florida panhandle during hurricane season.

When you purchase a fraction of the fleet size needed, you can’t treat these aircraft like every other fighter fleet.


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So we halt phase maintenance for 6 months at a time?  I'm sure that won't have a negative effect on fleet health.

[MooseAg03]

So we halt phase maintenance for 6 months at a time?  I'm sure that won't have a negative effect on fleet health.

Or maybe just do the maintenance somewhere else during hurricane season...


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[brabus]

21 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

Or maybe just do the maintenance somewhere else during hurricane season...


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Consider the extra time, money, and depot absorption limfacs to push normal phase externally. Unlikely to be a palatable Plan A. The most cost effective and efficient way forward is likely in the realm of building HAS with weather driving the design (as lawman pointed).

[Lord Ratner]

No one is arguing that these jets take a lot of maintenance or that this is the reality for tactical jets. But saying “this is how it’s always been done, sorry we weren’t able to hurrivac 10% of our nation’s premiere 5th gen aircraft” and going on business as usual can’t continue. Maybe it’s not such a smart thing to have aircraft disassembled in phase checks on the Florida panhandle during hurricane season.

When you purchase a fraction of the fleet size needed, you can’t treat these aircraft like every other fighter fleet.


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Shut up. Holes are too expensive to dig in Florida.

[the g-man]

Move Tyndall mission to literally anywhere, rebuild base as new UPT base. Move all assets of (take your pick: CBM, DLF, END) to Tyndall. Create massive reserve squadron for IPs. 80% AFRC, 20% AD, profit. AD will want to move there and AFRC guys will probably want to go full time.
Profit.


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[cragspider]

12 minutes ago, the g-man said:

Move Tyndall mission to literally anywhere, rebuild base as new UPT base. Move all assets of (take your pick: CBM, DLF, END) to Tyndall. Create massive reserve squadron for IPs. 80% AFRC, 20% AD, profit. AD will want to move there and AFRC guys will probably want to go full time.
Profit.


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While that would be a solution. However you forgot one thing, it’s not near a Major Airline hub. So reserves won’t jump as much. 

[Buddy Spike]

32 minutes ago, the g-man said:

Move Tyndall mission to literally anywhere, rebuild base as new UPT base. Move all assets of (take your pick: CBM, DLF, END) to Tyndall. Create massive reserve squadron for IPs. 80% AFRC, 20% AD, profit. AD will want to move there and AFRC guys will probably want to go full time.
Profit.


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Already an asspain to get to for a TR and the Raptor/WESP need the overwater airspace.  

[waveshaper]

14 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Already an asspain to get to for a TR and the Raptor/WESP need the overwater airspace.  

[pbar]

15 hours ago, Lawman said:

Yeah looking at this if we’re thinking “are we taking an unnecessary risk” I think the smart Lowest cost highest payoff universal move is building on site protection. 

HAS, Purpose built hangers, whatever... I think this might make a military that has 20 silver bullets parked in Missouri that cannot be replaced go “hey maybe I can spend some cash on a better garage for my stuff.”

 

for the cost of 1 B-2 or 2-3 Raptors..... what could you build...

When I was stationed at Camp Smith I remember someone telling me that PACAF looked at building HASes for the E-3s at Kadena but each HAS would cost $1 billion...

[Lawman]

When I was stationed at Camp Smith I remember someone telling me that PACAF looked at building HASes for the E-3s at Kadena but each HAS would cost $1 billion...

I mean... Wright Patt spent like 8 million dollars to build a bathroom on the golf course back in the 90s, so while it’s totally possible to spend that much I’m almost sure it’s because we’re stupid.


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[gearhog]

2 hours ago, waveshaper said:

They don't "need" the overwater airspace as much as I need to fly direct from FLL or MCO to MSY or HOU.