Join Spouse for UPT Studs

[Starfox]

Random question/probably not uncommon situation   

I just got picked up for OTS to be a pilot (hooray!) and my soon-to-be-wife is leaving for OTS to be a pilot in a couple of months as well. We’re both Prior-Es. We’re very optimistic we can both get the same base for UPT, so that’s not the issue, and even if it were, not the end of the world. More importantly, in all of yours guys’ experience, how does Join Spouse work for two pilots starting out? She’ll be ahead of me in the pipeline about 6 months. We’re *hoping* she gets an aircraft and then I can just get that same one at drop night 6 months later, but I’ve been in the Air Force far too long to get excited about that actually happening.

 

What do you think will realistically happen with us? Does her getting a rare drop hurt our chances? Will they FAIP us? Does anything actually matter? TIA!

[DirtyFlightSuit]

Mil to mil, glad I never contemplated it.  The good news is it looks like the AF is getting ALOT better than before actually keeping married together.  The bad news is their record was fairly bad before, so getting better is all relative.   You will both need to talk frankly about both of your goals and expectations.  If one of you goes 38s chances are the other wont be (probability), and depending on your air frames your ability to get co-located can be extremely hard if not impossible.  Going heavy especially already married and you'll have plenty more options but completely forgoing pointy nose may be a issue for one or both of you.  There is no right answer here really so good luck.  Glad I didn't marry mil to mil, I've seen plenty of couples make it work, but you toss in kids and year long deployments on that and no thank you.  

[Standby]

45 minutes ago, Starfox said:

Random question/probably not uncommon situation   

I just got picked up for OTS to be a pilot (hooray!) and my soon-to-be-wife is leaving for OTS to be a pilot in a couple of months as well. We’re both Prior-Es. We’re very optimistic we can both get the same base for UPT, so that’s not the issue, and even if it were, not the end of the world. More importantly, in all of yours guys’ experience, how does Join Spouse work for two pilots starting out? She’ll be ahead of me in the pipeline about 6 months. We’re *hoping* she gets an aircraft and then I can just get that same one at drop night 6 months later, but I’ve been in the Air Force far too long to get excited about that actually happening.

 

What do you think will realistically happen with us? Does her getting a rare drop hurt our chances? Will they FAIP us? Does anything actually matter? TIA!

Realistically, you both won’t get Raptors or F-35s. It’s easier if you both are stellar student pilots because the drop can be worked appropriately. Biggest piece of advice is to pick an airframe with lots of assignment potential and not limited on training slots. If you haven’t already done so, you both need to sit down and come up with three COAs: 1) you’re both great and have reasonable certainty for assignment preference 2) one of you is good and the other isn’t 3) you both suck. 

UPT is an environment where timing is everything but the squadron leadership has a much larger impact on assignments than naive 20-something-year-olds generally believe. 

[viper154]

It’s a total crap shoot. If you both do really well in would advantageous to have a rack and stack of the most common aircraft/bases at the top. C-17s to Charleston/McChord, 130s to the Rock, KC-135s to Fairchild, look at the assignment night thread and you can get a good idea of what is “common”. That F-22 or C-17 to Hawaii are hit and miss, and odds that it will be in both drops and you both finish high enough to grab the assignment aren’t that great. 

I would think your best bet for staying together would be biting that FAIP bullet, odds are most people in the class won’t want it, I would think your CCs would have a little more pull getting you to the same base after a FAIP tour, they have a “FAIP drop” for their follow on assignment but I’m sure there is some wiggle room to make things happen. 

[juacey]

I saw them create a helo slot out of thin air for an engaged couple.  So you never know. 

My opinion, no clue why mil to mil gets special treatment. No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

[Motofalcon]

38 minutes ago, juacey said:

 My opinion, no clue why mil to mil gets special treatment. No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

Shack. 

[HuggyU2]

45 minutes ago, juacey said:

No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

Nor did they ask me about my wife's career.  Assuming your wife also isn't serving her country in the military, then I wouldn't expect AFPC to do so.  You're not entitled to it.  

A married couple both serving in the military and striving to get an assignment together is worthy of efforts by AFPC to make it work.  After all, both the husband and the wife are legally obligated to their assignment.  It would be nice if AFPC could do it for every person in the military.  However, they can't.  So better to do it for a few that really could use it.  

I certainly don't begrudge their success if they are able to pull it off.  

Edited November 24, 2018 by HuggyU2

[DirtyFlightSuit]

54 minutes ago, juacey said:

I saw them create a helo slot out of thin air for an engaged couple.  So you never know. 

My opinion, no clue why mil to mil gets special treatment. No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

You and people like you are why I'm out in 30 days.  Enjoy your exactly what the AF is looking to promote.  You will go far in this Air Force with that douche attitude.  If you ever complain about good deal police, slap yourself because you are they.  

My spouse has put up with much in following me in my AF career, but that is nothing compared to what most mil to mil have to deal with.  I had it far easier than just about any of them, minus perhaps my finances.  I'd still take my position over theirs any day.   

Edited November 24, 2018 by DirtyFlightSuit

[ThreeHoler]

As mil to mil I never lived with my wife until she got out of AD. So sorry to hear about your wife’s career.


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[Majestik Møøse]

This will test the two of you. Some career combos seem to be easier for mil-mil. Pilot+MX, Pilot+Intel, hell, Pilot+anything other than another Pilot. Here’s the rub: every pilot wants to fly particular kinds of jets out of UPT, especially if they’re good enough to have the opportunity to choose. You say you’d do anything for you spouse? That it’d kill you to be apart? And when you’re at the top of your class and she’ll be lucky to escape with wings (or vice versa) and your Flt/CC offers you the choice between an X-Wing and Space Shuttle, what then? Will you choose love over your dream job?

If it works out that you’re both in a jet and location you enjoy, great. Otherwise, I think the road will be a little painful.

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

You and people like you are why I'm out in 30 days.  Enjoy your exactly what the AF is looking to promote.  You will go far in this Air Force with that douche attitude.  If you ever complain about good deal police, slap yourself because you are they.  

My spouse has put up with much in following me in my AF career, but that is nothing compared to what most mil to mil have to deal with.  I had it far easier than just about any of them, minus perhaps my finances.  I'd still take my position over theirs any day.   

I don't have a problem with trying to make assigents work but I have seen couples throw the join spouse card to leverage some really good deals and that is honestly infuriating sometimes. Doing overseas to overseas or getting a release to switch to a more desirable air frame. I want military couples to be together as much as possible though, so there doesn't seem to be a good answer to that. 

[frog]

3 hours ago, juacey said:

I saw them create a helo slot out of thin air for an engaged couple.  So you never know. 

My opinion, no clue why mil to mil gets special treatment. No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

Because the AF has invested money in a mil to mil spouse, and they want to retain him/her. We all know it is tough for non mil spouses in the workforce, but the AF isn’t losing a training investment forever if he/she decides to take a couple of years off.

- Non mil to mil guy

[ViperStud]

This story is about 5 years old. First and foremost, AF doesn’t give AF about soon-to-be anything. You’re either married or not. 

Couple went through UPT at the same base with her about two months ahead. Both went -38s but she excelled and he did not. Flight CCs had some heart-to-heart discussions with them about being realistic; ie, he wasn’t going to get a fighter.

When it came to decision time, they made two moves. First, she put Vipers number one and got one. Second, they pulled the trigger and got married. I don’t know how many times I heard him say “we’re hoping I finish up well and the AF does the right thing.”  That rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He ended up getting what he earned, which was not a fighter. Two years later the divorce was already final. 

Lessons learned: they were not on the same page. There are realistic aircraft assignments that make it easier, but typically not the most sought-after ones. Really love each other?  Have her go to Toners and put KC-135s as number one. That’s true love. 

If you want fighters: Unless you can both perform well enough to be top third of T-38 track, you are ball-walking. Vipers would be best bet out of sheer numbers, but you’d both better kick ass. 

With her being 6 months out in front, you’ll realistically have no idea about your own performance before she needs to make decisions (track night, dream sheet). Have her fall off her scooter, break an ankle and roll back a few classes. That’ll increase your ability to make informed decisions. 

Edited to answer your questions bluntly. What happens to you is a function of (A) your performance and (B) how realistic you two are. I don’t doubt there were rare CCs who bent over backwards, but UPT is the most merit-based system we have. You will not be gifted an assignment if you don’t earn it. 

Yes, if she gets a rare assignment that hurts your chances. Bases do trade aircraft between them when drops go down, but it’s based on merit. 

You have more control of your destiny if you target assignments that aren’t as sought after: think FAIP and tankers at the top of that list.  You guys need to think about what is top priority: relationship or chasing the dream of a specific aircraft. Having both is low PK. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by ViperStud

[Tunes3]

10 years post wings is a huge commitment to Uncle Sam- choose wisely .  You are unlikely to both perform equally.  There will likely be hurt feelings of woulda coulda shoulda on track and assignment night.  I myself gave up my dream assignment overseas to take the safe choice at the big base to help get an assignment together.  12 years later, we’ve been together +/- a few months here and there, still married, 2 kids, and we are at that dream assignment now.

On the flip side, most of my friends that married  fighter-heavy or heavy airframes that don’t base anywhere near each other have all had at least 1 person exit the service at the soonest possible opportunity (VSP) because the AF has no obligation to cross-train people to other airframes for convenience.

Both of you should let your Flt leadership know early what your intentions are (priority join spouse or airframe...very difficult to get both).  They should help cage expectations as track and drop approach.  135, 17, or 130 to larger bases are more plentiful leading to better odds of remaining together.  Work your asses off so you get a choice and leadership can trade if they have to...if either of you are bottom of the class, it ties everyone’s hands.

Good Luck.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Tunes3
Typing is hard

[jice]

13 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

As mil to mil I never lived with my wife until she got out of AD. So sorry to hear about your wife’s career.


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Sounds like you guys ultimately had to make a choice to prioritize one career over the other in order to be together. That sucks; it’s a hard life to live and a hard choice to make. That life and that choice are not exclusive to mil to mil.

The results usually hurt the Air Force regardless of the spouse’s military status. 

14 hours ago, juacey said:

My opinion, no clue why mil to mil gets special treatment. No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

Good thing. Wouldn’t want to have anybody consider what your needs are as a human in order to improve your quality of life. /Sarcasm. A lack of sufficient control to influence the situation is understandable. A lack of interest is completely unacceptable. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by jice
Grammar and stuff

[Hermey]

1) get married legally before or early in UPT or AFPC won’t be obligated to work a join spouse anything or care

2) have your soon to be wife request to remain on casual status at UPT longer (ie roll back her class start date) and put a request to have you start soonest after showing up....stay within 2 months of grad date of each other so you can REALISTICALLY work an airframe you both deserve. I heard hard classes are going (or already went) away so maybe you can game this a bit by having her slowly go thru the syllabus / roll an ankle or something. 

3) the key is being realistic (reference the bottom performer T38 guy pissing everyone off holding out for an undeserved fighter because his wife got one already in the story above)...you’ll have to chose an airframe that the weaker of the two of your performances in UPT merits. If you both deserve fighters then go for it....if you don’t both deserve your preferred airframe keep in mind assignments that might work great for your marriage (ie you don’t move much and can deploy together on the same schedule) but are not historically highly desired (wife body ISR Tinker/Robins or EC-130 DM comes to mind....AMC (tankers or airlift) after these bc you’re always gone at opposite schedules with trips/deployments....but they do a good job in AMC keeping you at the same assignment/base and I’ve seen a ton of upgrade TDYs to Altus worked together for couples). Again the key here is graduating as close together as possible 

 

4) I’m not sure how no longer having hard classes at UPT will factor into all this. With a hard class you could kind of tell where in the class you stood...with folks graduating faster and slower based on performance it creates a whole new calculus. You’ll really need to be engaged with the flight cc and whoever is in charge of assignments and be vocal about your join spouse situation early as well as get honest feedback on your performance as you get close to assignment night. 

5) Long term planning...I’ve seen DV airlift or U2s work out for married couples (or finally bring them back together when they flew different aircraft). Rare, but remember that good performance and meeting the requirements together for a selective program could help you get to a community together after that first or second assignment. IFF IP paired with UPT IP has also worked for heavy to fighter marriages so if you don’t end up in the same airframe at the first assignment there are ways to get back together if your marriage survives the long distance.

Good luck!

[war007afa]

16 posts and no one asked it...must be some sort of record!

[Starfox]

Thank you all for your responses and information. 

Neither of us have any true aspirations for fighters. We both think A-10s and B-1s would be pretty neat, but we understand that realistically that probably won’t happen, especially with Join Spouse.

We have our sights set on primarily anything AFSOC, as we’ve both extensively worked with that community. We’re also both linguists, so to fly on aircraft that lingusits fly on (except for NSAv) would be pretty cool. NSAv, Gunships, MC-130s, and U-28s is what we’re hoping for in that order. RC-135s wouldn’t be the end of the world for me, but it would be for her, haha. Aside from that, I suppose we’re pretty open. If we can’t get a mission we’re particularly passionate about, then we’ll try for aircraft that have good duty station we wouldn’t mind living in. Most important thing is staying together. I personally have been fortunate enough to have a very rewarding/cool career to where I feel I can do something not as sexy in order to be with her. 

War007afa, what question might that be?

Once again, thank you all for your insights.

[juacey]

17 hours ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

My spouse has put up with much in following me in my AF career, but that is nothing compared to what most mil to mil have to deal with.  I had it far easier than just about any of them, minus perhaps my finances.  I'd still take my position over theirs any day.   

My point is that mil to mil choose that life fully knowing the ramifications and should not get special treatment. I’ve seen too many joint spouses get “drug” along by their significant other to an assignment that otherwise would go to someone more deserving. Examples I’ve seen: guy stay 9 years in Germany, another get selected for Phoenix Reach off the alternate list, another get school, DO of sister squadrons, SQ/CC of sister squadrons etc. Theres nothing here about good deal policing. I just think that it’s wrong to consider the personal lives of only a subset of individuals. Do it for everyone or no one.  I’m just as likely to separate due to my family concerns as a mil to mil. 

Similiar example is the single people getting shafted over holidays and on deployments because apparently their time is less valuable. 

Regardless, it’s just an opinion and I can see the benefits to both sides. 

[juacey]

17 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

As mil to mil I never lived with my wife until she got out of AD. So sorry to hear about your wife’s career.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Your choice. Typically people that live apart and can’t/won’t leave their jobs also have to deal with distance relationships. It’s not like the Air Force drafted one of you into service. It’s just life. 

I don’t think the AF should ignore your personal preferences. They shouldn’t ignore anyone’s. But they definitely shouldn’t give yours priority just because of your choice in spouse. 

[ViperStud]

Star Fox, we could give you much more sound advice if we know what we’re dealing with here...

[HeloDude]

19 hours ago, juacey said:

I saw them create a helo slot out of thin air for an engaged couple.  So you never know. 

My opinion, no clue why mil to mil gets special treatment. No one ever asked me if an assignment was compatible with my wife’s career.  

Not merit based but just because they're an engaged couple (not legally married)?  I serious doubt it...and I'm a join spouse who is very familiar with the assignment process.

[SurelySerious]

11 minutes ago, Starfox said:

 

War007afa, what question might that be?

I believe he’s referring to pictures so he can properly judge the cost/benefit of your endeavor. 

[HeloDude]

3 minutes ago, juacey said:

Your choice. Typically people that live apart and can’t/won’t leave their jobs also have to deal with distance relationships. It’s not like the Air Force drafted one of you into service. It’s just life. 

I don’t think the AF should ignore your personal preferences. They shouldn’t ignore anyone’s. But they definitely shouldn’t give yours priority just because of your choice in spouse. 

Do you know the real reason they decided to make filling join spouse assignments a priority?

[Kenny Powers]

Just now, SurelySerious said:

I believe he’s referring to pictures so he can properly judge the cost/benefit of your endeavor. 

It's the only way to actually give any advice backed by science...