F-15X on the Air Force's Budget Request

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

We should look into that. 

Not even close to that and I get the sarcasm. 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

The problem with the near peer fight isn’t going to be offensively overwhelming an enemy. The problem is going to be facing an enemy capable of ranging into your support zones and offensively impacting them to much the same degree of lethal results as you inflict on them. 

 

Swarm weapons with some form of semi-autonomous AI will be the 21st century equivalent of the LGB/JDAM revolution though. Even in a coin fight they just provide such a generational improvement over current limits on going kenetic. Now instead of dropping a Hellfire into a window and hoping I catch the guy, let me send a half dozen bird sized drones able to go inside said building, look around corners and stairwells and find the guy all while directing its kenetic kill to ignore the mom and her kids or going high order when they find a few of his friends in said room. 

Half a dozen!? Drop 20,000 with each one able to target, analyze, and independently attack targets all while communicating with their other swarm members. It’s not that far fetched. 

[Lawman]

21 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Half a dozen!? Drop 20,000 with each one able to target, analyze, and independently attack targets all while communicating with their other swarm members. It’s not that far fetched. 

20k independent drones for 1 militant in a Coin fight is ridiculousness and excessive beyond all logic.... which is exactly why we will do it. 

Somebody call Raytheon! I’ve got checks they need to cash!

[Danger41]

“I do not know with what Weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

-Einstein

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

20k independent drones for 1 militant in a Coin fight is ridiculousness and excessive beyond all logic.... which is exactly why we will do it. 

Somebody call Raytheon! I’ve got checks they need to cash!

I wasn’t talking about coin fight nor was the general discussion about coin. 

[Clark Griswold]

Question for the forum, mainly for the naysayers:

If instead of this particular deal (12 aircraft for 1.2 billion) it was 225 aircraft for 15.7 billion at 70 mil a copy, would that change your opinion on acquiring a new 4.5 gen design to replace the old 4th gens on the line?  

IDK, there's the granular level decision to the exact capabilities that a particular design can bring to the fight and then the higher level strategic decision of what a fleet of aircraft of a particular design can bring to our capability to deliver Airpower in total effect(s).  

The cost has to be factored as the AF budget is a finite pie, is this a compromise that can get enough good players on the team while saving enough money to get the other players necessary for the team to win?  New AWACS, new RIVET series, etc...

While a non-LO design but one that probably would have some of the capabilities of 5th Gens (sensor fusion, advanced sensors, advanced datalink, etc...) will have LIMFACs, but coupled that with new weapons (LREW) and then aforementioned mission support platforms that you can afford thru long term strategic savings by paying now to replace legacy iron, is that the better move?

[brabus]

Still way too expensive...an F-35 would be only ~$15M more (~20% more for substantially more capability/survivability in the longterm).  Honestly, even if the price was $50M, I still think the money could be spent elsewhere (and I'm not talking just on a fighter).  Again, I don't think anyone can present a strong argument for the hypothetical of buying "3.5 gen" F-4s instead of F-16/F-15s back in the 70s.  This is the same thing, different era.  And since I haven't said it, the F-15X or a Block 70 Viper would be a badass airplane and have some awesome capes, but when you step back and look at the big picture without emotion, neither is the right long term move.

[Longhorn15]

5 minutes ago, brabus said:

Still way too expensive...an F-35 would be only ~$15M more (~20% more for substantially more capability/survivability in the longterm).  Honestly, even if the price was $50M, I still think the money could be spent elsewhere (and I'm not talking just on a fighter).  Again, I don't think anyone can present a strong argument for the hypothetical of buying "3.5 gen" F-4s instead of F-16/F-15s back in the 70s.  This is the same thing, different era.  And since I haven't said it, the F-15X or a Block 70 Viper would be a badass airplane and have some awesome capes, but when you step back and look at the big picture without emotion, neither is the right long term move.

F-4G flew well into the F-15 era, and was damn good at its job.  It was never replaced because the AF decided that LO would solve all problems, and we didn't need EA anymore.  I think most would agree that was a bad decision.  Do you want to start an A-A fight with the F-35 loadout?  You're right, F-35 is more than LO, F-15X is also much more than just a new F-15C.  

There are significant limitations to F-35 and putting all our eggs into that basket isn't perfect.  Would I love to have 400 F-22s, yes.  Would I love to have the F-35 able to solve all problems, yes.  I disagree with your notion that there is no scenario in which I'd rather be in an F-15X than an F-35, but that is as far as I'm willing to go down that discussion.

When it comes to cost, the difference in purchase cost is negligible.  This is all about sustainment.  The F-35 is expensive as hell, the F-15X is cheap by comparison.  Does anyone really think we're going to buy 1,763 F-35s?  We need some cheaper aircraft with a lot of capability, F-15X is one way to work towards that future.

[Lawman]

10 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

I wasn’t talking about coin fight nor was the general discussion about coin. 

Oh I know. It’s just the inevitably that’s where we end up dropping 70% of our stuff. It’d be nice if we had some sort of betterstrategy of procurement that involved buying weapons well suited for both types of conflict. It’s what avoids dumb stuff like having to half ass modify all the anti-tank Hellfires (K -> K2A) in the inventory because the war stock was prepared to shoot 20k tanks, but not the targets we were actually servicing. 

[brabus]

You missed my point.  Your comments on the F-35 specifically are in line with a lot of dudes who don't have insight/knowledge beyond the surface level of the program (a basic program brief and a healthy dose of invalid WOMs).  That's not a personal attack, it's a fact that applies to a lot of the CAF, let alone everyone else who doesn't even work in the current, fighter community. No, I do not want to be in a Block 70, an F-15X, etc. over F-35/F-22 in several scenarios (though of course I would prefer those if the only alternative was a current F-16/F-15).  We don't need a hoard of 4th or 4.5 gen fighters (a misnomer many are hung up on) - there are means to solve problems other than bravehearting our way into the fight with hundreds/thousands of manned 4-4.5 gen fighters.  Our current 4th gen fighters properly SLEPd and upgraded will fulfill our defense requirements, and this will cost less/allow allocation of more funds to other things that will net us more warfighting capability than purchasing new, non-5th gen aircraft.  Like you and many others, I love my 4th gen fighter and hate to see it get shoved from the front of the line, and I want to see it "survive," but that's a myopic and emotional viewpoint, I can admit that.

You want to divert funds to something that will get use fairly quickly and have a warfighting impact with low sustainability cost, send it to light attack and other related programs.  $1.2B on those are more useful and have better "warfighting payoff" longevity than 1/2 a squadron's worth of F-15X, Block 70, etc.  Not an emotionally popular opinion in a 4th gen fighter squadron, but it has truth to it if dude's are willing to take a step back and see all portions of the big picture.

Edited December 26, 2018 by brabus

[VMFA187]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 8:18 PM, Hacker said:

Hope for what?

Some new-build can't-survive-in-a-double-digit-SAM-threat jets?  Some new barely-equals-to-the-Flanker?

 

You don't need them operating in that environment. But it would be nice to have a fighter with the kinematics of an Eagle, with significantly upgraded capes in nearly every area, with the ability to carry more than twice the A-A loadout of any current fighter we're fielding.

[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

You missed my point.  Your comments on the F-35 specifically are in line with a lot of dudes who don't have insight/knowledge beyond the surface level of the program (a basic program brief and a healthy dose of invalid WOMs).  That's not a personal attack, it's a fact that applies to a lot of the CAF, let alone everyone else who doesn't even work in the current, fighter community. No, I do not want to be in a Block 70, an F-15X, etc. over F-35/F-22 in several scenarios (though of course I would prefer those if the only alternative was a current F-16/F-15).  We don't need a hoard of 4th or 4.5 gen fighters (a misnomer many are hung up on) - there are means to solve problems other than bravehearting our way into the fight with hundreds/thousands of manned 4-4.5 gen fighters.  Our current 4th gen fighters properly SLEPd and upgraded will fulfill our defense requirements, and this will cost less/allow allocation of more funds to other things that will net us more warfighting capability than purchasing new, non-5th gen aircraft.  Like you and many others, I love my 4th gen fighter and hate to see it get shoved from the front of the line, and I want to see it "survive," but that's a myopic and emotional viewpoint, I can admit that.

You want to divert funds to something that will get use fairly quickly and have a warfighting impact with low sustainability cost, send it to light attack and other related programs.  $1.2B on those are more useful and have better "warfighting payoff" longevity than 1/2 a squadron's worth of F-15X, Block 70, etc.  Not an emotionally popular opinion in a 4th gen fighter squadron, but it has truth to it if dude's are willing to take a step back and see all portions of the big picture.

Our current 4th Gen will not be properly SLEPd. Too many issues with age and patchwork fixes. Therefore you will spend way more trying to keep them running than purchasing new 4.5 Gen to do the missions F-35 is not required for. I’m not going to get into a “believe me cause I know stuff” argument since I probably fly the same stuff you do.  I know, it’s difficult to understand long term funding in terms of man power and parts allocation or even flying hours. Just ask yourself, what is the cost associated with flying a 15/16 vs 35. If you really want to get into the weeds, go hang out with your maintenance as ask intelligent questions. 

[brabus]

My takeaway on F-16 SLEP was not "it won't be properly done," coming from guys I worked with who are far more knowledgable in that area than I am (and it's high on the priority list).  Do you have first hand knowledge that says otherwise?  I won't speak for Eagle/Strike SLEP, but it's not an entirely different animal.  Of course any number of things (including SLEP) can be fucked up in the future by politicians, wayward GOs, some dickhead SES, etc., but its not really noteworthy in these types of discussions due to the universal application of fuckery to any program.  

If you want to argue operation and sustainment costs (I probably understand them better than you think), then maybe you should be arguing why we're even using 4th gen fighters at all in the current wars.  We've been destroying our jets for years doing shit a 4th gen fighter is way "over kill" for.  Yet here we are, slogging away killing dudes on donkeys and dropping thousands of PGMs to move dirt a few feet.  Do we need 4.5 gen fighters to take on those rolls?  The reality is if something more peer-level kicks off, all that flying hour cost, etc. discussion would be fairly inconsequential when 75% of the Package AA/AB F-16s/F-15s didn't come home.  How's generation for AC+ looking?  Oh, and the CFACC objectives weren't accomplished either, so we'll have to re-roll a bunch of shit to future ATOs and DTs.  Or there's the alternative of increasing capital in newer technology that outperforms anything that could come of a 4.5 gen fighter.  It may not be cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than what the realized losses would be in the aforementioned example.

[link]

On 12/24/2018 at 10:30 AM, Boomer6 said:

Serious question: How many here commenting have been briefed on the capes? Just trying to separate the chaff.. 

This is the best response. How many people get their info from google and don’t understand the true capes of most our fighter fleet?

Edit: I assume you are fighter guy based on the “chaff” comment. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by link

[matmacwc]

14 hours ago, link said:

. How many people get their info from google and don’t understand the true capes of most our fighter fleet? 

1 post.  Read the first couple pages of general discussion and squadron bar and you’ll figure it out.

 

If you see the name “Scoobs” just ignore it.

Edited January 2, 2019 by matmacwc

[JeremiahWeed]

21 hours ago, link said:

Edit: I assume you are fighter guy based on the “chaff” comment. 

Or a farmer....😬 .......wheat.....chaff...ya know.

[Breckey]

23 hours ago, link said:

Edit: I assume you are fighter guy based on the “chaff” comment. 

Herks and helicopters have chaff too.

[Majestik Møøse]

29 minutes ago, Breckey said:

Herks and helicopters have chaff too.

Don’t forget C-2s and P-8s. Or maybe he’s a C-17 guy!

[ThreeHoler]

Maybe he meant chafe?


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[herkbum]

Doesn’t Vaseline take care of chafing?

 

 

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[skibum]

Gold Bond

[Breckey]

You are a friend of mine

[Lawman]

Gold Bond

If we are going down this route...

Diaper rash cream (the ones with a ton of zinc oxide) are apparently popular in some of the SOF circles for the inner thigh area and foot hotspots. That and body glide.


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[BashiChuni]

SOF circles, inner thigh, hotspots, body glide

shack yourself 

Edited January 3, 2019 by BashiChuni

[ThreeHoler]

But does the F-15X pilot have to do his crew chief?


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