F-15X on the Air Force's Budget Request

[Scooter14]

 
Control grade nightmare!

Well, with more legacy Herk units going to Js that will free up some right?

[Clark Griswold]

Navy is looking at longer range fighters, take a cue AF and build a modern escort fighter 
Navy Quietly Starts Development of Next-Generation Carrier Fighter; Plans Call for Manned, Long-Range Aircraft
From the article:
Compared to the F-35’s 700 nautical miles of combat radius, Clark said his “impression” is that the Navy hopes to build a new fighter with a radius of more than 1,000 nautical miles.
Build a modified hybrid of the Silent / EX Eagle with an additional section in the fuselage to hold 3 AIM-260s and an additional 750 gallons 
Too expensive to start another 5th gen program, forgo the LO and give it every other advantage you can.

[Seriously]

5 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Navy is looking at longer range fighters, take a cue AF and build a modern escort fighter 
Navy Quietly Starts Development of Next-Generation Carrier Fighter; Plans Call for Manned, Long-Range Aircraft
From the article:
Compared to the F-35’s 700 nautical miles of combat radius, Clark said his “impression” is that the Navy hopes to build a new fighter with a radius of more than 1,000 nautical miles.
Build a modified hybrid of the Silent / EX Eagle with an additional section in the fuselage to hold 3 AIM-260s and an additional 750 gallons 
Too expensive to start another 5th gen program, forgo the LO and give it every other advantage you can.

We already developed one. The YF-23 was supposed to be a long range companion to the F-22. 

[Clark Griswold]

We already developed one. The YF-23 was supposed to be a long range companion to the F-22. 

But we didn’t buy it, now 20 years on we have a need IMO for this but starting / buying another 5th gen is a bridge too far, a capable 4+ gen is possible


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[EvilEagle]

On 8/20/2020 at 5:18 PM, Ryder1587 said:

Can’t wait for all the C model dudes having to fly with a WSO.  After a few sorties they’ll realize they can’t do it all and it’ll be fine. But the briefs will be comical the first few months.  

I can't wait for all the WSO's to cry about the ANG flying with empty back seats and crushing it.  

[brabus]

Just like a single seat guy couldn’t possibly use a TGP or an ASR to find and kill things...yep, that happens every day, and with great success. Maybe they’ll take the seat out and strap a power pack back there for the tiger shark’s laser gun. 

[Clark Griswold]

Yeah but... the second seat is someone to share the load and manage the fatigue of long missions strapped into the seat.

Considering the distances of the Pacific and potentially long range missions to the Arctic, the additional cognitive load of unmanned loyal wingmen management, etc... another cranium would be useful IMO.

[Scooter14]

....the additional cognitive load of unmanned loyal wingmen management, etc... another cranium would be useful IMO.

The thought of making a two seat aircraft in order to have an unmanned loyal wingman makes me chuckle.

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Just like a single seat guy couldn’t possibly use a TGP or an ASR to find and kill things...yep, that happens every day, and with great success. Maybe they’ll take the seat out and strap a power pack back there for the tiger shark’s laser gun. 

Or another gas tank?  Bring on the lasers...

 

https://theaviationist.com/2020/08/19/lockheed-martin-shows-new-airborne-defensive-laser-system-for-f-16-and-c-130/

[Clark Griswold]

5 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

The thought of making a two seat aircraft in order to have an unmanned loyal wingman makes me chuckle.

Somewhat counter intuitive I admit but if this platform takes on a quarterback role, not necessarily but just envisioning it to, I think flying & fighting the platform itself, directing the wingmen, keeping the full tactical picture and defending the HVAAs, again assuming it would be DCA tasked as LOs went forward, would be a lot for anyone not to mention the comm piece.

[Sprkt69]

12 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Yeah but... the second seat is someone to share the load and manage the fatigue of long missions strapped into the seat.

That’s what go pills are for

[Sprkt69]

11 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Somewhat counter intuitive I admit but if this platform takes on a quarterback role, not necessarily but just envisioning it to, I think flying & fighting the platform itself, directing the wingmen, keeping the full tactical picture and defending the HVAAs, again assuming it would be DCA tasked as LOs went forward, would be a lot for anyone not to mention the comm piece.

So basically what happens already

[Clark Griswold]

That’s what go pills are for

And cocaine is a helluva drug but go pills aren’t the Limitless pill that make you unstoppable

So basically what happens already

Yes but with new toys requiring minding during the fight and fighting an opponent likely 69 times more capable than the last enemy we fought who had capabilities to oppose us and pose a realistic threat(s)

Give the 4+ gens LO loyal wingmen controlled by the WSOa while the pilots fly the Eagles as 4+ gens, each crew in each Eagle is effectively now a mixed force two ship leveraging the relative strengths of each platform

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[brabus]

7 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Give the 4+ gens LO loyal wingmen controlled by the WSOa while the pilots fly the Eagles as 4+ gens, each crew in each Eagle is effectively now a mixed force two ship leveraging the relative strengths of each platform

The eagle won’t be anywhere near where the AI wingman are truly needed, and the tyranny of distance/enemy NKE will prevent them from effectively tasking and controlling the AI, even if they had the legs to get from the eagle to the 5G+ fight. Now, when we have hypersonic AI Jets with also high on station time, then we can maybe talk. Perhaps a handoff of control to the 5G guys once the AI arrives. Either way, we have a LONG ways to go before this is operationally feasible. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by brabus

[Sprkt69]

18 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

And cocaine is a helluva drug but go pills aren’t the Limitless pill that make you unstoppable

Yes but with new toys requiring minding during the fight and fighting an opponent likely 69 times more capable than the last enemy we fought who had capabilities to oppose us and pose a realistic threat(s)

Give the 4+ gens LO loyal wingmen controlled by the WSOa while the pilots fly the Eagles as 4+ gens, each crew in each Eagle is effectively now a mixed force two ship leveraging the relative strengths of each platform

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Your inspirational suggestion on the tactical usage of loyal wingman may be highly unlikely. I’d bank on updated avionics and AI still making WSOs obsolete in that fight.

Besides, I’m guessing real fighter pilots would rather have extra fuel and a lack of intercom noise. 

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, Sprkt69 said:

 

Besides, I’m guessing any real pilots would rather have extra fuel and a lack of intercom noise. 

FIFY. The enemy’s best comm jamming system. 

[Clark Griswold]

15 hours ago, brabus said:

The eagle won’t be anywhere near where the AI wingman are truly needed, and the tyranny of distance/enemy NKE will prevent them from effectively tasking and controlling the AI, even if they had the legs to get from the eagle to the 5G+ fight. Now, when we have hypersonic AI Jets with also high on station time, then we can maybe talk. Perhaps a handoff of control to the 5G guys once the AI arrives. Either way, we have a LONG ways to go before this is operationally feasible. 

Possibly (as to the long technical, tactics and operational know how) to make this work so let's crawl to the first stages so we can walk then run to the second and third.  This manned/unmanned team is not just for the Title Fight over the Taiwan Straits but at all levels of ops/combat and not only Air Dominance.    

Using a new new build 4+ gen to work out the kinks prior to modifying the 5th gen systems to add this capability (likely expensive) seems to manage risk and mitigate future costs.

Modifying the Bone for at least a demo/experiment might be more feasible for the Bobs to approve and fund this vice new iron.

4 hours ago, Sprkt69 said:

Your inspirational suggestion on the tactical usage of loyal wingman may be highly unlikely. I’d bank on updated avionics and AI still making WSOs obsolete in that fight.

Besides, I’m guessing real fighter pilots would rather have extra fuel and a lack of intercom noise. 

Possibly (redundant use noted)  but AI may make everyone obsolete, I'm not betting that's gonna happen tomorrow so I'll still advocate for a second aviator directing the AI wingmen to which mission or task to perform then let the AI figure out the best way to do that specific job till otherwise re-tasked.

[JimNtexas]

On 8/21/2020 at 10:13 PM, EvilEagle said:

I can't wait for all the WSO's to cry about the ANG flying with empty back seats and crushing it.  

As a retired EWO, while it does bother me a tad that we'd cripple an F-15EX by flying it with a mere pilot, I have to admit that for intercepting Bears coming down from Russia one guy in the airplane is sufficient. 

[Majestik Møøse]

Sounds like some flying competitions will be in order. Same jets, one has a WSO in it.

[brabus]

One will shoot the 4 ship and go out NLT MAR. The other will have a discussion on which missile to select for which contact while riding the sled all the way to death. I just saved the government $50M in unnecessary testing. I’ll be looking for my innovative check in the mail shortly. 

[Sprkt69]

C’mon brabus, a WSO can tell you when to flare or jink among getting that Sweet sweet ATIS for you

[Ryder1587]

It’s great hearing opinions from people who never flown with a WSO what it’s really like.  I guess people actually think the Air Force will let one person fly in it when it was designed for two?  We will look back at this thread 5 years from now and see who was correct.  

[EvilEagle]

40 minutes ago, Ryder1587 said:

It’s great hearing opinions from people who never flown with a WSO what it’s really like.  I guess people actually think the Air Force will let one person fly in it when it was designed for two?  We will look back at this thread 5 years from now and see who was correct.  

When I was at Mtn Home, we started a thing to have all the new IWSO's and soon-to-be-IWSO's come over and ride in our D model for some more advanced BFM concepts.  I think I did about 9 or 10 of those rides.  Not one had a clue, they all said to do the wrong thing constantly.  They would argue with me when I wasn't their voice-activated auto pilot.  In the debrief, most of them were very cool and got some good learning out of it.  A few of them might-as-well have crossed their arms, stomped their feet and put their fingers in their ears when I was trying to teach.  Ah well.... 

 

I've never had to fly with WSO's.  That one small window to the community was enough for me.  

 

It's not an opinion for the ANG.  We don't have the money to fund enough pilots for our current jets.  There simply isn't enough money to have twice as many officers; it's not like AD where they just say "we're doing this" and let the money people figure it out.  I'll be completely shocked if the ANG starts flying with WSO's again even if AD force-feeds WSO's into a/a squadrons.  

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, Ryder1587 said:

It’s great hearing opinions from people who never flown with a WSO what it’s really like.  I guess people actually think the Air Force will let one person fly in it when it was designed for two?  We will look back at this thread 5 years from now and see who was correct.  

 

23 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

[WSOs] The enemy’s best comm jamming system. 

 

[JeremiahWeed]

3 hours ago, Ryder1587 said:

3 hours ago, Ryder1587 said:

It’s great hearing opinions from people who never flown with a WSO what it’s really like.  I guess people actually think the Air Force will let one person fly in it when it was designed for two?  We will look back at this thread 5 years from now and see who was correct.  

It was designed for two in the late 1980's when the weapons and information interface may have supported two crew members (primarily for the ground attack mission).  The inconvenient truth is that the only production line open at McBoeing is the two-seat version.  If the USAF had the option to buy a single seat version, my guess is they probably would.  So I wouldn't read too much into the extra seat.

The fact is that the current data flow available through on and off-board sensors and the interface between aircraft and pilot is stagnated and even hindered by filtering that information through another human linked to the pilot by a simple voice intercom.  Hate to burst the bubble for some of you GIB types, but this isn't 20th century fighter employment where an extra set of eyeballs saves the day when an undetected bandit swings your wingline or sensor interface or weapons employment is so complex that another crew member is required to do the job.  No offense, just reality.

Edited August 25, 2020 by JeremiahWeed