New Tech/ART pay tables

[SocialD]

27 minutes ago, ROCK 10 said:

GS-11 step 1 in NYC pay tables shows $87K.  Add a conservative $20K for 1LT MIL pay, and that's a nice paycheck for a 25-30 year old LT!

Not advocating long term ART by any means, just wanted to mention the new pay tables can be a great option while upgrading to AC/IP.

Understand and agree with you, it's some good pay especially if AGR isn't even an option.  Just interested in what triggers you guys giving them a GS-12 spot.  I sure wish this had all been around when I was a fresh Captain and offered a GS-12 step 1 which had a base pay closer to the current GS-11 rates.  I knew I was never going to get my 20 AGR so I would have jumped on an ART at the current pay rates.

[Gazmo]

SD, -12 is usually for AC upgrade - and -13 is for IP in AFRC MAF tails.  Back in the 90's, a copilot had to start at GS-09!
All said and done, I think the best way to go is with an AFRC/ANG UE Wing; i.e. unit equipped - not associate.  Anyhoo, nice to see the ARC finally giving a good living wage to our replacements.

We are hiring all pilots as GS-13's in my unit (ANG). Even 1Lt's fresh off of season days. There was a time we were hiring non-IP's as GS-12's, but that is long gone. If I had my eye on an airline gig, I'd rather be an ART on a retention bonus while I waited for my dream job. Free agent and great cash (over $200k possible).

[Guardian]

We are hiring all pilots as GS-13's in my unit (ANG). Even 1Lt's fresh off of season days. There was a time we were hiring non-IP's as GS-12's, but that is long gone. If I had my eye on an airline gig, I'd rather be an ART on a retention bonus while I waited for my dream job. Free agent and great cash (over $200k possible).

That’s because in mid 2015 NGB said hire all tech pilots as GS13. Its current policy. So yeah if you’re new and not looking for the new active retirement system you could make a lot of bank as a 2nd LT. Talking 15 yr major or 16 yr Ltcol pay depending on location, bonus, etc.

[GoodSplash9]

7 hours ago, Guardian said:

That’s because in mid 2015 NGB said hire all tech pilots as GS13. Its current policy. So yeah if you’re new and not looking for the new active retirement system you could make a lot of bank as a 2nd LT. Talking 15 yr major or 16 yr Ltcol pay depending on location, bonus, etc.

Anyone able to provide $ and duration details on the Guard ART bonus? Sounded like the AFRC ART bonus was $25k (what are the duration options)?

Tracking all technician pilots in the Guard are hired as GS-13s. From what I've gathered, the Reserve would hire pilots not qualified in the unit MWS at a GS-9 pay scale for ART positions. It sounds like step levels are negotiable...GS scale as well at all? If I'm able to find Guard and Reserve units looking for technicians, it seems like going with the Guard is a no-brainer. 

[Gazmo]

Anyone able to provide $ and duration details on the Guard ART bonus? Sounded like the AFRC ART bonus was $25k (what are the duration options)? Tracking all technician pilots in the Guard are hired as GS-13s. From what I've gathered, the Reserve would hire pilots not qualified in the unit MWS at a GS-9 pay scale for ART positions. It sounds like step levels are negotiable...GS scale as well at all? If I'm able to find Guard and Reserve units looking for technicians, it seems like going with the Guard is a no-brainer. 

 

The ART bonus was approved in summer of 2016. I was the first pilot in my unit to be offered and accept one. ART bonuses are taken out of hide from the unit civpay pot. What that means is the unit needs to manage the bonuses accordingly because it ultimately means less temp Techs and fewer on the spot bonuses for everyone else. My unit was doing 25% for IP's and 10% for AC's. It is calculated AFTER locality bump up and ended up being just over $29k for me payed put biweekly. I was making about $146k just in techpay as a Step 6. In 2017, I grossed about $175k with a deployment. Now, with the SSR rates, it's another ballgame. With the new rates, I would be making about $177k just in techpay with $210k+ within range adding milpay. Keep in mind, however, that it is your unit's perogative to offer you an incentive bonus above and beyond your regular techpay. The ART bonus policy is not a gimmie from NGB for all ART's. Civilian retention bonuses can be given to any GS employee and the guidance is driven by OPM. Not sure if units are still giving out bonuses to people under the new SSR rates as the new payscales are pretty close to what people would make with a 25% bonus.  

 

Yes, units can hire ART's into higher Steps if the person exceeds qualifications. It's all about how they advertise the job.

 

 

 

[Stoker]

Anyone know where the TDART (new hires off seasoning days) will fall? I thought it was supposed to be GS-9, but OPMs tables start at GS-11.

[Siegzy]

GS-11 step uno

[Jetpower]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:20 AM, Stoker said:

Anyone know where the TDART (new hires off seasoning days) will fall? I thought it was supposed to be GS-9, but OPMs tables start at GS-11.

Where you start on the GS scale (GS-9 or 11) depends on how many MDS hours you have following your seasoning tour and from what I was told, your sim time counts.

Below is based off of 2018 Special Rate Table Number 0767 for 2181 (Aircraft Operator) for STEP 1.

GS-9 = $50,598.00, less than 300 total MDS hrs (UPT grad) 

GS-11 = $76,940.00, 300 total MDS hrs

GS-12 = $92,220.00, 750 total MDS hrs

 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Instead of throwing rocks at them like seagulls to get them to fly, throw $$$ at them. Nice millennial adjustment. Cool, my stranded buds can focus on other things finally. Good stuff.

[Guardian]

What are we talking about? Sorry for my ignorance. I thought all pilots in NGB are GS13 step 1 or higher for the last 3+ years. Or did that policy go away?

[AirGuardianC141747]

ANG units are the focus of discussion I believe, NGB probably not as they are either AD folks or Guard folks on Title 10 AD orders for a set period or have earned career status which brings them to a minimum of 20 years at higher headquarters.

Our unit was Co-Piglet GS-11, Aircraft Philander GS-12 and the Destructor Pilot & Devaluator Pilot GS-13s. Several of us were grandfathered in as GS-13s prior to this mandate so we were lucky. Now it looks like it’s MDS hours driven vs position, but most likely both since the GS-13 isn’t listed on Jetpowers post.

750 hours total time (waiver required at the time since those hours included UPT was the issue) was one of the lowest thresholds I had seen transition thru the school house during AC upgrade so that tier level of experience seems to fit as a graduating scale of pay and experience.

I recall many folks pushing for AC and then IP hard to get the pay increases despite not really being ready to perform. You must have a good prep process within the unit prior to sending them to upgrade school. At least get your Co-pilots some hands-on supervised tanker time prior to upgrade.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by AirGuardianC141747

[Guardian]

Is this new? I know of a brand new second LT being hired as a GS13

[AirGuardianC141747]

If that is the case, then it seems it’s unit dependent. GAZMOs post indicates units have Carte Blanche to give bonuses out so that may have or still bleeds into hiring wage practices as well.

I am just trying to put the Humpty Dumpty pieces together from several of the previous posts to gain a better picture. Not the source here, just a historian at this point.

 

[Guardian]

Unless something has changed, NGB directed that all pilots be hired a GS13. The memo is somewhere here on Baseops.

[Jetpower]

Where you start on the GS scale (GS-9 or 11) depends on how many MDS hours you have following your seasoning tour and from what I was told, your sim time counts.
Below is based off of 2018 Special Rate Table Number 0767 for 2181 (Aircraft Operator) for STEP 1.
GS-9 = $50,598.00, less than 300 total MDS hrs (UPT grad) 
GS-11 = $76,940.00, 300 total MDS hrs
GS-12 = $92,220.00, 750 total MDS hrs
 

What I put above is for AFRC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gazmo]

What I put above is for AFRC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AFRC and ANG often do things differently despite having very similar force structures. ANG has been hiring all pilots as GS-13's (again) for quite some time now and supplementing with bonuses. Who knows if this will change given the new payscales, but I know quite a few younger pilots hired doing pretty well for themselves while they build airline time.

[roto]

I think something worth mentioning, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, is although ANG starts at 13 those slots are harder to come by (especially in heavy units) than in the AFRC (especially for low time 1Lt types). In the AFRC, from what I understand, you’re guaranteed a technician slot as soon as you’re off seasoning. Plus AFRC has more $$. Obviously this will vary but I feel like AFRC has more financial stability than the ANG. 

Thats the only the trade off I can come up with when comparing the two. I’m a guard guy looking at switching to AFRC and I’m gonna miss the good ol state militia, but as far as setting up shop and building time with a solid financial plan I think AFRC is might be the way to go. 

 

[Gazmo]

I think something worth mentioning, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, is although ANG starts at 13 those slots are harder to come by (especially in heavy units) than in the AFRC (especially for low time 1Lt types). In the AFRC, from what I understand, you’re guaranteed a technician slot as soon as you’re off seasoning. Plus AFRC has more $$. Obviously this will vary but I feel like AFRC has more financial stability than the ANG. 
Thats the only the trade off I can come up with when comparing the two. I’m a guard guy looking at switching to AFRC and I’m gonna miss the good ol state militia, but as far as setting up shop and building time with a solid financial plan I think AFRC is might be the way to go. 
 

Of course all things eventually come to an end, but right now, with the experienced ART's running out the door to the airlines, most newbies off seasoning have a pretty good chance of a fulltime job, at least at most of the tanker units. I comparison, I waited 6 years for a fulltime job.

[SocialD]

13 hours ago, roto said:

I think something worth mentioning, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, is although ANG starts at 13 those slots are harder to come by (especially in heavy units) than in the AFRC (especially for low time 1Lt types).

Until they started offering GS-13, we couldn't give our tech spots away.  We have been filling our tech spots with guys right off seasoning because no one else wanted them.  Before they started handing out GS-13 like candy, some guys chose to just go to the regionals to build time (some are still going to the regionals anyway).  Up until recently anyone who wanted a tech spot in my squadron, could have had one.   The only reason it's changing is because we're swapping tech spots for AGRs as guys move out of their technician spots...almost all of them to move to AGR or airlines.  I can't remember the last person that retired as a technician in my squadron.  Now getting an AGR, that's a different story.  Right now, that will take some time. 

As always, timing is everything though.  When I was finished seasoning it was the exact opposite.  You could have all the orders you wanted (Temp-AGR/ADOS), but getting a tech spot was nearly impossible.  If they did offer you one it was GS-12 step 1 until you were an IP.  I'm sure the pendulum will swing the other way some day.  

For reference this is a fighter squadron with an alert mission, so YMMV.

 

Quote

In the AFRC, from what I understand, you’re guaranteed a technician slot as soon as you’re off seasoning.

...as a GS-9!  🤢 I guess at the end of the day, it is a job.  

 

Quote

Thats the only the trade off I can come up with when comparing the two. I’m a guard guy looking at switching to AFRC and I’m gonna miss the good ol state militia, but as far as setting up shop and building time with a solid financial plan I think AFRC is might be the way to go. 

Having a few friends that have switched from ANG to AFRC, there are A LOT more than a few tradeoffs, especially if you're moving from a stand alone Guard base to a Reserve squadron co-located with the AD...A LOT!

Edited May 21, 2019 by SocialD

[roto]

2 hours ago, SocialD said:

Until they started offering GS-13, we couldn't give our tech spots away.  We have been filling our tech spots with guys right off seasoning because no one else wanted them.  Before they started handing out GS-13 like candy, some guys chose to just go to the regionals to build time (some are still going to the regionals anyway).  Up until recently anyone who wanted a tech spot in my squadron, could have had one.   The only reason it's changing is because we're swapping tech spots for AGRs as guys move out of their technician spots...almost all of them to move to AGR or airlines.  I can't remember the last person that retired as a technician in my squadron.  Now getting an AGR, that's a different story.  Right now, that will take some time. 

As always, timing is everything though.  When I was finished seasoning it was the exact opposite.  You could have all the orders you wanted (Temp-AGR/ADOS), but getting a tech spot was nearly impossible.  If they did offer you one it was GS-12 step 1 until you were an IP.  I'm sure the pendulum will swing the other way some day.  

For reference this is a fighter squadron with an alert mission, so YMMV.

 

...as a GS-9!  🤢 I guess at the end of the day, it is a job.  

 

Having a few friends that have switched from ANG to AFRC, there are A LOT more than a few tradeoffs, especially if you're moving from a stand alone Guard base to a Reserve squadron co-located with the AD...A LOT!

 

Right, by trade off's I mean redeaming features of the AFRC. And I couldn't agree more, AFRC on an AD base would be no bueno.

And for what it's worth, AFRC gals go to GS-11 At 300 hours which includes UPT time, so you should start there at the end of seasoning. A little better. Not throwing Spears just correcting the record.

I'm just trying to wrap my a cranium around the differences in pay between AFRC and ANG. I don't want to believe that the reserve's just pay their peeps less for the same job (more deployments) as ANG to save a few bucks. Right?

[Jetpower]

1 hour ago, roto said:

 

Right, by trade off's I mean redeaming features of the AFRC. And I couldn't agree more, AFRC on an AD base would be no bueno.

And for what it's worth, AFRC gals go to GS-11 At 300 hours which includes UPT time, so you should start there at the end of seasoning. A little better. Not throwing Spears just correcting the record.

I'm just trying to wrap my a cranium around the differences in pay between AFRC and ANG. I don't want to believe that the reserve's just pay their peeps less for the same job (more deployments) as ANG to save a few bucks. Right?

According to my hiring manager at my Reserve unit (GS-12 ART), UPT time does not count, only MDS hours count. Maybe every unit is different?

Edited May 21, 2019 by Jetpower

[Siegzy]

I was told GS-11 after seasoning. That being said, none of us who have been told GS-11, have it in writing. 

[Gazmo]

Having a few friends that have switched from ANG to AFRC, there are A LOT more than a few tradeoffs, especially if you're moving from a stand alone Guard base to a Reserve squadron co-located with the AD...A LOT!

Unless you are a senior O-4 or already an O-5 and have less than 3-4 years to go to an AD retirement (and really... how many units have people like that these days?), converting to AGR with the new GS-13 payscales and ART bonuses isn't worth it. You can easily make north of $150k per year (some over $200k) as an ART now. This ART to AGR conversion came almost a decade too late. Now they've got one program fighting against the other. I know somebody who converted and wants to go back to being a technician because he took a pay cut and had more flexibility with the technician leave system. If you want to be a free agent and make a lot of money, stay a technician. If the initiative to convert technicians to AGR's happened 6 or 7 years ago, we probably would have kept at least half of the fulltime FGO's we have lost over the last 5 years, to include myself.

 

[Jetpower]

Theoretically, a brand new copilot should have 300 MDS hours to be a GS-11 following a prog tour if the UPT hours did not count. However, your MDS hours at the end of your prog tour depend on the length of your prog tour and the hours you accumulate at FTU. Maybe your unit is kind enough to keep you on the prog tour until you reach 300 MDS hours so that you can skip GS-9 and go straight to GS-11.   

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Jetpower

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, Gazmo said:

Unless you are a senior O-4 or already an O-5 and have less than 3-4 years to go to an AD retirement (and really... how many units have people like that these days?), converting to AGR with the new GS-13 payscales and ART bonuses isn't worth it. You can easily make north of $150k per year (some over $200k) as an ART now.

If you're simply looking to make as much money while waiting for an airline to call and no hope of an AGR retirement, then I don't disagree.  Actually, that's exactly what I would have done if they had offered me GS-13 (plus the bonus) and not GS-12 step 1.  We happen to have a handful of guys with a decent amount of AGR time from their enlisted days.  They'll soon be looking at 16-18 year Major (plus big AGR bonus) and < 6-9 years to an AGR pension.  I don't blame them for angling toward AGRs.

 

1 hour ago, Gazmo said:

 I know somebody who converted and wants to go back to being a technician because he took a pay cut and had more flexibility with the technician leave system.

Our AGRs have much better flexibility than our Techs.  We may be a unicorn but our scheduling is pretty well optimized for QOL of the AGRs.  If Techs don't sit alert, it's just the standard 4x10s + working their mil time. 

 

1 hour ago, Gazmo said:

If you want to be a free agent and make a lot of money, stay a technician. 

100% agree.