UPT Next

[Scooter14]

Correct. The goal of this program is to make a better pilot though. 

Copy, but I’m not sure I buy it.

[norskman]

43 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

 

Copy, but I’m not sure I buy it.

 

Yeah, neither do I. Sarcasm here. I can't imagine how cutting a pilot syllabus by 115 hrs (~56%) will make someone better. 

[WheelsOff]

6 hours ago, Danger41 said:

If you just want to fly a fighter, I’d recommend you maintain a pulse for the next 6 months and you’ll get there.

Quoted again for emphasis. 

[Clark Griswold]

Yeah, neither do I. Sarcasm here. I can't imagine how cutting a pilot syllabus by 115 hrs (~56%) will make someone better. 

But, but the metric is green now!

That means better right?


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[BashiChuni]

12 hours ago, Danger41 said:

 If you just want to fly a fighter, I’d recommend you maintain a pulse for the next 6 months and you’ll get there.

quoted again for accuracy

[Pooter]

Former next instructor here.  Genuinely saddened and ashamed that big blue took something with a lot of promise and decided to use it to increase quantity rather than quality.  

Can't say I'm even a little bit surprised though.  

 

[raimius]

16 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

 

Zero fixed wing time?

Sounds like a good way to make sure someone can’t ever leave the helicopter community...

 

Also a great way to make helicopters even more the red-headed stepchildren, who will struggle to work with fixed-wing dudes for lack of background.
It's a terrible idea, IMO.  It will reduce quality (flight experience) and introduce cultural problems wrt "big AF."

Finished Rucker with 218hrs, with a little over 100 in Hueys, but that was in 2012.  Showed up to my first ops unit with about 290, if I recall correctly.
Now, we could get new copilots with under 200, from what it sounds like. Anyone remember the most dangerous time for aviators...?

[standbytostandby]

A new LT that went through UPT Next recently showed up in my squadron.

He got his wings with ~65 hours in the T-6. He finished "IFF" with two flights in the T-6 for a grand total of <70 hours flight time before going to a fighter FTU course. He failed out of that course and was sent to a FEB. He got a waiver and was reassigned to something that is not a fighter. 6 graduates form his UPT Next class went fighters, two failed out.

He said that his class told those above them the whole time that they were not ready to graduate. They were told that if they had issues, they would be able to return to UPT for a T-38 course. That was not true, and now a dude with less than 100 hours flying has a FEB on his record.

I have "flown" the VR "sims" these guys used. They are almost useless. They might as well not even have flight controls.

This is about saving money and producing pilots faster. It is not about producing competent and safe pilots.

What a joke.

 

[tedybearofdoom]

Graduated 1st half of 2019
T1 -    58.0 hrs
T6 -     79.7 hrs
Total - 137.7 hrs

Our class had a few syllabus changes (e.g. no 2nd block of form for studs tracking T1's) but was one of the last classes prior to a major syllabus change. DLF was also not doing the mission fam block of T1's when I was there because they didn't have enough aircraft due to that hailstorm a few years back. I think they started doing them again since last year.

[norskman]

16 hours ago, raimius said:

Also a great way to make helicopters even more the red-headed stepchildren, who will struggle to work with fixed-wing dudes for lack of background.
It's a terrible idea, IMO.  It will reduce quality (flight experience) and introduce cultural problems wrt "big AF."

Absolutely correct. Also, from my understanding, the FWF course at Vance has long since been shut down for RW bubbas. Anyone have data on that? 

[CharlieHotel47]

Absolutely correct. Also, from my understanding, the FWF course at Vance has long since been shut down for RW bubbas. Anyone have data on that? 

No longer with us. One of the Sim instructors at vance told me it was rapidly eating up aircraft time and quickly pushing aircraft overhaul timeframes way forward than expected. It ended back in 2013 I think. Now most of the fleet is nearing overhaul, and from what He understands, there’s a plan being floated around about making the UPT 2.5 Toner phase (about 3 months) SIM only with no actual T1 time.


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[Majestik Møøse]

11 hours ago, CharlieHotel47 said:

...from what He understands, there’s a plan being floated around about making the UPT 2.5 Toner phase (about 3 months) SIM only with no actual T1 time.

 

Just what the MAF needs, worse hands. No way this is real.

[ThreeHoler]

I don’t know about this exact plan, but there is a desire in 19 AF to completely ditch the T-1 and send pilots to the MAF after getting winged from T-6s.

AMC/A3T is quite concerned about it.


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[dream big]

8 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

I don’t know about this exact plan, but there is a desire in 19 AF to completely ditch the T-1 and send pilots to the MAF after getting winged from T-6s.

AMC/A3T is quite concerned about it.


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As they should be, that’s the worst idea ever.  Who is going to train these T-1 wonders at the FTUs and ops squadrons? When Rona dies the mass exodus of IPs will continue.  

[FLEA]

I hate knowing this but I think this is a battle we (pilots) are going to lose. 

[Sprkt69]

51 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I hate knowing this but I think this is a battle we (pilots) are going to lose. 

Of course. We will be the ones that shed blood for the decisions of management.

[SurelySerious]

Shamelessly stolen from a MAF corner of the internet. 

[hindsight2020]

4 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Just what the MAF needs, worse hands. No way this is real.

It is real. The end game for heavies is airline style training, as far as the Kwast-bred PTN illuminati is concerned. There's even sub-pipelines in the works to get hypothetical regional (and equivalent experience et al) civilian re-treads and just send them to FTU after an assessment of "credit" for civilian training. The paradigm is being baked to dispense with heavy sortie counts in the aircraft, which is SOP in airline training. That means T-1 sims only in the most likely formulation, though they'd love to jam the FTUs with T-6 direct. That's their Motrin you see; every problem in the USAF can be solved by Oculus and "t-6 dIrEcT". They got a fever, and the only Rx...is more T-6. *cowbell clanging*

As to the question about quality, the quiet part has already been spoken out loud. It's even in the title FFS. This is about throughput and quantity, not quality. As to retention? oh children, enough already....They don't care about retention. And our new CSAF already took a jab at critics in that propaganda piece. So don't forget, any objective criticism of these opportunity costs just lands you in Luddite "you're part of the problem, old guy" re-education camp. Now it's on public record, so there should be no question what the marching orders are from the top. This will be the new reality. And be careful, the commissars are everywhere, "mentoring" has already occurred in some instances, if I may be euphemistic.

From the article [my emphasis]: 

Quote

Brown’s not concerned about more of the pilot training program moving to simulation, and away from real-world flying sorties. He said he was checked out in a C-130J through simulator rides only and was “fully qualified to fly the airplane” afterward. “I didn’t really notice that much difference” between the two, he said. While it’s important that students hear the engines and “smell the JP-8” fuel, “by and large, you can get a lot done in a good simulator,” he said.

Asked about instructor pilots who have raised concerns about students moving to majority-simulator training, Brown said he expects resistance to any new idea.

“Anytime we try to change anything, you’re going to move somebody out of their comfort zone,” he said. While there may have been such objections a year ago, “I think we’ve moved on from that.”

So they don't need your skepticism, now get back on the parade line and look enthusiastic for dear Leader, you're not singing convincingly enough. 😄 

 

 Stay safe out there everyone.

 

LINK: Air Force Magazine, Aug 23 2020

Edited August 24, 2020 by hindsight2020

[Majestik Møøse]

Heinous. Be sure to cite the root causes in the AIBs.

[TX dude]

On 8/21/2020 at 8:36 PM, SurelySerious said:

 

FDNY is the only data point within the last few years so far, and he is significantly less (about 40-50 as 2020 pointed out). Otherwise, agree, it was pretty constant from your 1989 to about 2012 ish based on available data. 

I just graduated earlier this month with approximately 134 hours in UPT roughly split down the middle between the T-6 and T-1. Another data point for what it's worth.

[Clark Griswold]

I can't believe AMC isn't telling AETC to shove this idea where the sun don't shine...

 

[brabus]

How many hours are pilots/WSOs coming out of F-15E B-course with? Curious how it compares to the F-16/F-35, as those jets are both AETC vs. ACC, and as close a comparison as possible regarding breadth of mission sets.
 

Hypothesis: ACC knows fighter business better, so why is AETC sticking its hands in the fighter pie with 2 of the 6 fighter MDS. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by brabus

[Sprkt69]

20 minutes ago, brabus said:How many hours are pilots/WSOs coming out of F-15E B-course with? Curious how it compares to the F-16/F-35, as those jets are both AETC vs. ACC, and as close a comparison as possible regarding breadth of mission sets.
 

Hypothesis: ACC knows fighter business better, so why is AETC sticking its hands in the fighter pie with 2 of the 6 fighter MDS. 

I think it is fairly obvious from the new CSAF, all of management want the numbers to look good regardless of how many jets are crashed. All objections to the master plan have been deemed “not a team player”

[Sprkt69]

Word on the street, HAF says to divest the T-1. So good times

[Danger41]

So Devil’s advocate here but for the AMC assets out there, why isn’t there a push or an ability to do a lot of the training in a Airline caliber, full-motion, category D level simulator? Let’s be honest with ourselves here that a lot of AMC missions are flying from A to B and knowledge and application of solid IFR abilities are more important than tactical acumen. I think you send a T-6 direct guy to that style of training, then drop him in the ops units and do an MQT style thing in that units mission. Then seek additional quals  at various hour thresholds. 
 

This partially was inspired by talking to some C-17 IP’s looking to them to do an airdrop and several of them weren’t qualified in that and avoided it like the plague. That not only pissed me off, but if you want to travel the world like an airline pilot, why not train that way? That sounded overly venomous, but I hope my point is getting across.