UPT Next

[Standby]

Serious question…are all white people the same? If so, I understand the argument for selectively recruiting non-whites. Last I checked, though, we all have our own DIVERSE life experiences prior to service. If there are illegitimate barriers to entry into military service, we should get rid of them. Arbitrarily discriminating based on race or gender (yes, I went there…there’s only 2 and it was assigned way prior to birth) is bullshit. Saying that all white people are the same is just as much bullshit. 

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Standby said:

Serious question…are all white people the same? If so, I understand the argument for selectively recruiting non-whites. Last I checked, though, we all have our own DIVERSE life experiences prior to service. If there are illegitimate barriers to entry into military service, we should get rid of them. Arbitrarily discriminating based on race or gender (yes, I went there…there’s only 2 and it was assigned way prior to birth) is bullshit. Saying that all white people are the same is just as much bullshit. 

I dont think anyone on this forum believes that. My experience with DEI has been people doing the phenomenal work of addressing grooming standards, access to sanitary facilities like lactation rooms, ensuring immigration programs are being upheld to law within the DoD, etc...... Its the same basic crap you learned in OTS/ROTC/Academy, take care of your people. 

I don't necessarily promote putting people into a position just because they are a female, or just because they are black. I would say though, that if you are a white male commander, it is probably good technique to identify if you don't have those types of individuals on your command team, and if you don't have them, how do you plan to solicit feedback from those groups in another way. Likewise, if you are a black female commander, how are you going to get feedbacks from other subgroups you dont have readily available in your inner circle. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by FLEA

[BashiChuni]

“The Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada hosted its first drag show in order to boost morale and promote inclusivity and diversity, according to the base“

All in the name of inclusivity and diversity. 

[BashiChuni]

Flea you might have good motives. And I applaud you. But this administration doesn’t share them. They’re absolute radicals and the DEI that’s being pushed from the very top of the federal government is antithetical to our values as Americans. 
 

I could post literally hundreds more articles about how ridiculous DEI is

[arg]

An NCO at CVS won the coveted DEI inovation award. Didn't know that was a thing.

Flea, do they have that at your base?

[nsplayr]

Hey how's UPT Next going? We lost the thread about a page-and-a-half ago...

What I want is an 18X -> 11X pipeline. ~4-6 months should do it. DA-20 refresher then maybe T-6 only or even straight to the T-7. If you can supposedly make a brand new 11X pilot off the street with UPT Next in ~6 months, shit, you can certainly make an 11X from an 18X who already knows chock-to-chock AF flying, AF pubs, tons of mission stuff, etc.

The AF says it's short of pilots, the airlines say they're short of pilots, well the MDS with the most pilots is the MQ-9 and with satellite landing & recovery / ATLC / LEO satellite ops coming online now, those people are doing everything from engine start to shutdown, including killing our country's enemies. It's one weird trick to having more Air Force pilots (also CC the FAA please 🙏).

I'd love to see a TX pipeline for getting the (typically) younger, more motivate sub-set of 18X MQ-9 pilots into manned platforms and frankly that should lead to shutting down the 18X career field entirely. It was a stop-gap in the first place and everyone who is an aircraft commander should go through UPT, learn the same skills and have the same wings IMHO.

Especially with the only remaining RPA platform eventually sunsetting, 18X is kind of a death sentence for a brand new LT on active duty because there is absolutely not a plan for what to do with you when the Reaper is put out to pasture.

[SurelySerious]

What I want is an 18X -> 11X pipeline. ~4-6 months should do it. DA-20 refresher then maybe T-6 only or even straight to the T-7.

That’s the funniest shit I’ve read on this site in a long time.

[LookieRookie]

Anecdotally, all the core 18Xs that became actual pilots had no difference between any other students. 

[ViperMan]

I normally agree with your posts, but I think you miss the mark on this topic. 

5 hours ago, FLEA said:

You said diversity of thought; so I guess my first question to you would be do you think that a person's experiences will change how they think?

Of course people's experiences affect their view of the world, their outlook, how they approach problems, and how they think. BUT, the left loves to use this as a  substitute for their actual argument, which is that people with different skin colors necessarily have different experiences, and are necessarily different from each other. This is unequivocally untrue. Put another way, it's the argument that gets trotted out anytime the left wants to increase participation of group 'X' because of some reason, but they need a reason that sounds legitimate because of course the actual argument is racist.

How do I know this? Precisely because of the argument you just made. No one - not one politician, not one general officer, not one pastor, not one poster on an internet forum, and not you, has ever been able to articulate why someone of a certain race has an essential characteristic that makes them fundamentally different from someone of a different race. Because of course, such arguments are inherently and correctly recognized as racist; hence the deferral to substitute arguments.

The left makes an argument for including certain races based on characteristics that aren't tied to those races, and then justifies it with an appeal to different 'experiences.' Katie Hobbs' most recent hum and haw session in this Univision interview is exhibit #1. A 'true believer' was completely unable to describe why she thought so highly of her extended Hispanic family (as she should be unable to because of course she's not actually racist, she just plays one to her constituency).

So we learned what she loves is "hanging out with them" and "practicing her Español". M'kay. What is glaringly obvious in this interview is that she doesn't believe a word of what she's saying, knows it's bullshit, but has chosen to say it anyway. Our society is endangered when our politicians are so willing to go there. This is not an indictment of Katie Hobbs. It's an indictment of everyone who thinks this way. It's effing poison. It's cowardly.

5 hours ago, FLEA said:

If yes, than my second question would be do you believe that being a woman, or being black or Hispanic, might create experiences that you would not otherwise have being white, or being a man.

"Yes" to the woman question. "No" to the Hispanic and black question. Women are different from men. Men are different from women. Regardless of the current social discourse. Blacks, Hispanics, and whites are not fundamentally different from each other.

I know the left thinks the right is missing "context" in how our society operates. What the left is missing is that there is never a reason (good or bad) to discriminate upon the basis of race. Somehow we once knew this, but we seem determined to forget it and regress. Sigh.

[dream big]

8 hours ago, Standby said:

Serious question…are all white people the same? If so, I understand the argument for selectively recruiting non-whites. Last I checked, though, we all have our own DIVERSE life experiences prior to service. If there are illegitimate barriers to entry into military service, we should get rid of them. Arbitrarily discriminating based on race or gender (yes, I went there…there’s only 2 and it was assigned way prior to birth) is bullshit. Saying that all white people are the same is just as much bullshit. 

I’ve been flabbergasted with the racist comments the DEI crowd in the military has been able to get away with the last few years.  The most racist people I’ve met are far from white. God help you if you are a White Male in the military. 
 

FWIW: I’m not 

Edited October 20, 2022 by dream big

[O Face]

3 hours ago, ViperMan said:

I normally agree with your posts, but I think you miss the mark on this topic. 

Of course people's experiences affect their view of the world, their outlook, how they approach problems, and how they think. BUT, the left loves to use this as a  substitute for their actual argument, which is that people with different skin colors necessarily have different experiences, and are necessarily different from each other. This is unequivocally untrue. Put another way, it's the argument that gets trotted out anytime the left wants to increase participation of group 'X' because of some reason, but they need a reason that sounds legitimate because of course the actual argument is racist.

How do I know this? Precisely because of the argument you just made. No one - not one politician, not one general officer, not one pastor, not one poster on an internet forum, and not you, has ever been able to articulate why someone of a certain race has an essential characteristic that makes them fundamentally different from someone of a different race. Because of course, such arguments are inherently and correctly recognized as racist; hence the deferral to substitute arguments.

The left makes an argument for including certain races based on characteristics that aren't tied to those races, and then justifies it with an appeal to different 'experiences.' Katie Hobbs' most recent hum and haw session in this Univision interview is exhibit #1. A 'true believer' was completely unable to describe why she thought so highly of her extended Hispanic family (as she should be unable to because of course she's not actually racist, she just plays one to her constituency).

So we learned what she loves is "hanging out with them" and "practicing her Español". M'kay. What is glaringly obvious in this interview is that she doesn't believe a word of what she's saying, knows it's bullshit, but has chosen to say it anyway. Our society is endangered when our politicians are so willing to go there. This is not an indictment of Katie Hobbs. It's an indictment of everyone who thinks this way. It's effing poison. It's cowardly.

"Yes" to the woman question. "No" to the Hispanic and black question. Women are different from men. Men are different from women. Regardless of the current social discourse. Blacks, Hispanics, and whites are not fundamentally different from each other.

I know the left thinks the right is missing "context" in how our society operates. What the left is missing is that there is never a reason (good or bad) to discriminate upon the basis of race. Somehow we once knew this, but we seem determined to forget it and regress. Sigh.

[CaptainMorgan]

Hey how's UPT Next going? We lost the thread about a page-and-a-half ago...
What I want is an 18X -> 11X pipeline. ~4-6 months should do it. DA-20 refresher then maybe T-6 only or even straight to the T-7. If you can supposedly make a brand new 11X pilot off the street with UPT Next in ~6 months, shit, you can certainly make an 11X from an 18X who already knows chock-to-chock AF flying, AF pubs, tons of mission stuff, etc.
The AF says it's short of pilots, the airlines say they're short of pilots, well the MDS with the most pilots is the MQ-9 and with satellite landing & recovery / ATLC / LEO satellite ops coming online now, those people are doing everything from engine start to shutdown, including killing our country's enemies. It's one weird trick to having more Air Force pilots (also CC the FAA please ).
I'd love to see a TX pipeline for getting the (typically) younger, more motivate sub-set of 18X MQ-9 pilots into manned platforms and frankly that should lead to shutting down the 18X career field entirely. It was a stop-gap in the first place and everyone who is an aircraft commander should go through UPT, learn the same skills and have the same wings IMHO.
Especially with the only remaining RPA platform eventually sunsetting, 18X is kind of a death sentence for a brand new LT on active duty because there is absolutely not a plan for what to do with you when the Reaper is put out to pasture.

Why were they 18X rather than 11X in the first place? There were three types I generally saw as a URT instructor: A) Medically DQ’d, B) didn’t want a 10 year ADSC, or C) didn’t have high enough PCSM scores. 18X->11X doesn’t work for group A (with the exception of those who,s medical issue resolved/was waiverable). I imagine most of group B hasn’t done a 180 and is suddenly eager to sign up for another 10 year ADSC. As for group C, I’m sure some of them have gained enough airmanship that they could thrive at 11X, but there are plenty who can’t.

In any case, it’s not a good investment for the Air Force. Firstly, unless there is a significant overage in the 18X community, you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. Secondly, the Air Force is saving money by sending butterbars to UPT as opposed to Captains. Pay being one factor, lesser risk of medical DQ before ADSC being another.


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[Guardian]

Isn't DEI Diversity, Equity and Inclusion? Or is there another DEI I'm missing?
TBH: DE&I is an awesome concept. Its the way its polluted and practiced that make it nauseating. 

DEI is racist and sexist.

[Guardian]

Not sure where you come from but where I grew up good leadership was treating people fairly and being inclusive of people who may have been different from the in crowd. It was also seeking a variety of opinions on a matter before making a decision......
Suffice to say winning a dogfight or dropping a bomb has also never won a war.... Rather, a cohesive strategy developed by professionals derived from a wide variety of professional backgrounds and experiences has gotten us much further. 

I don’t disagree with this statement. It just so happens it has nothing to do with DEI.

What you said isn’t DEI.

[Lord Ratner]

10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Hey how's UPT Next going? We lost the thread about a page-and-a-half ago...

What I want is an 18X -> 11X pipeline. ~4-6 months should do it. DA-20 refresher then maybe T-6 only or even straight to the T-7. If you can supposedly make a brand new 11X pilot off the street with UPT Next in ~6 months, shit, you can certainly make an 11X from an 18X who already knows chock-to-chock AF flying, AF pubs, tons of mission stuff, etc.

The AF says it's short of pilots, the airlines say they're short of pilots, well the MDS with the most pilots is the MQ-9 and with satellite landing & recovery / ATLC / LEO satellite ops coming online now, those people are doing everything from engine start to shutdown, including killing our country's enemies. It's one weird trick to having more Air Force pilots (also CC the FAA please 🙏).

I'd love to see a TX pipeline for getting the (typically) younger, more motivate sub-set of 18X MQ-9 pilots into manned platforms and frankly that should lead to shutting down the 18X career field entirely. It was a stop-gap in the first place and everyone who is an aircraft commander should go through UPT, learn the same skills and have the same wings IMHO.

Especially with the only remaining RPA platform eventually sunsetting, 18X is kind of a death sentence for a brand new LT on active duty because there is absolutely not a plan for what to do with you when the Reaper is put out to pasture.

Not a crazy idea, but the AF is short sighted, so don't hold your breath.

 

I've been out for a while, but are we really almost done with UAVs? Have they just moved out of the AF?

[nsplayr]

7 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Why were they 18X rather than 11X in the first place? There were three types I generally saw as a URT instructor: A) Medically DQ’d, B) didn’t want a 10 year ADSC, or C) didn’t have high enough PCSM scores. 18X->11X doesn’t work for group A (with the exception of those who,s medical issue resolved/was waiverable). I imagine most of group B hasn’t done a 180 and is suddenly eager to sign up for another 10 year ADSC. As for group C, I’m sure some of them have gained enough airmanship that they could thrive at 11X, but there are plenty who can’t.

In any case, it’s not a good investment for the Air Force. Firstly, unless there is a significant overage in the 18X community, you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. Secondly, the Air Force is saving money by sending butterbars to UPT as opposed to Captains. Pay being one factor, lesser risk of medical DQ before ADSC being another.


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Valid points, but if we as a service are kicking and screaming about a pilot shortage (which we are), why not open up all options?

For group A, yea, if you can't hold a class 1 then sorry you're probably out of luck. Small data set, but out of a group of ~50 pilots in my squadron, I think we have maybe 2 who couldn't hold a mil class 1?

For group B, don't make it a new 10 year ADSC. You've already served 6-7 years, and this is TX would be targeted at people who want to stay in longer if not the full 20. Just send them through a TX, then to a manned pipeline IQT and give then a 2 year ADSC as if they had been an 11X and switched platforms.

For group C, PCSM score is now out the window, you're a winged Air Force aviator. Are you succeeding/thriving? If yes, and desire to switch to manned aviation, push toward TX. If folks wanna stay RPA for the remaining lifespan of the MQ-9, great, stay and succeed. If they don't have the skills or mentality to fly manned, then either don't push to TX or fail them out of TX and they get to be the last of the 18Xers. I personally know folks who probably fall in all three of these categories but very, very few would be totally unable to succeed in manned military aviation IMHO.

I would argue it's a great investment for the Air Force to have a more flexible pilot force that can evolve with different platforms over time. If you have mid-career MQ-9 IPs/EPs who want to fly other things but happen to be 18X, you should give them a pathway to do so, there's very little downside there. Any 11X pilot gained out of the process is a win and frankly it doesn't have to be a whole separate pipeline - send them to UPT bases on a shortened syllabus as skills allow, just like we're already doing with some off-the-street civilian pilots.

We all lament that the AF is losing valuable mid-career IPs who just wanna fly and be good squadron bros, but we're gonna let a bunch of people that fit this bill die on the vine if we continue to shoehorn them into MQ-9 only.

I agree that the most valuable pilot in the Air Force for the organization would be a brand-newly winged butter bar who has already signed a 20 year ADSC and is completely at the mercy of the service for two decades; that doesn't mean it's the best deal for all parties involved.

40 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Not a crazy idea, but the AF is short sighted, so don't hold your breath.

 

I've been out for a while, but are we really almost done with UAVs? Have they just moved out of the AF?

Yea, you can say that twice. I fully expect the AF to make the dumbest, most short-sighted decision possible, as usual.

At some point within the career span of our young 18Xers, the MQ-9 will go away and there's no plan to replace it with a similar RPA AFAIK. Lots of different COAs are being thrown around, but my view is that the writing is on the wall and 18X is a box canyon for new folks.

AI/manned-unmanned teaming/etc. will mean the next RPA may not be directly controlled by a pilot the vast majority of the time, meaning the 18X career field would be greatly reduced if not wholly OBE by technology. I could be wrong on this and we'll buy a shiny new MQ-Next controlled directly by a similar number of crews, but that's not what I've heard is the primary COA.

Until a TX pipeline were created, I would not advise any young gun to go the 18X route unless there was truly no other option. I would 100% advise them to extinguish all options for going to UPT, including the Guard and checking out sister service aviation, or go active duty CSO or even ABM because there are more well-worn paths for going 12X/13B -> 11X, especially because you'd start your career in a manned platform.

BL: there's little cost to writing a syllabus to allow for a 18X to 11X transition at existing UPT bases. If Big Blue didn't impose a whole new 10 year ADSC and didn't start TXers at square one like a random civilian off the street, you'd get plenty of takers. All at a time when we need more manned pilots and the only remaining RPA is seemingly well on the back-half of its service life with no planned similar replacement. The changes already underway with UPT Next, UPT 2.5, etc. are a great opportunity to build a TX syllabus for all willing and able 18Xers and we should do it.

[nsplayr]

11 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

That’s the funniest shit I’ve read on this site in a long time.

Why? We just took civilians fresh off the street with zero flying hours, zero military experience and winged them as 11X pilots in ~6 months. Why would you hypothesize existing MQ-9 pilots would need more TX training than this?

https://www.aetc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3107596/upt-25-a-new-generation-begins/

Edited October 20, 2022 by nsplayr

[CaptainMorgan]

Why? We just took civilians fresh off the street with zero flying hours, zero military experience and winged them as 11X pilots in ~6 months. Why would you hypothesize existing MQ-9 pilots would need more TX training than this?
https://www.aetc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3107596/upt-25-a-new-generation-begins/

They’re “winged pilots” who face an FEB and losing their wings if they don’t make it through T-38s, T-1s, or UH-1s. Not sure what the current washout rate is, but it’s already happened several times. I like to think of them as provisionally winged.


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[Standby]

I think 18X to 11X makes perfect sense, and it is definitely a program that should exist beyond just a trial run. I disagree regarding ADSC. Maybe not a full 10 year penalty, but there has to be something. 

[Homestar]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:10 PM, Pooter said:

In the 2018/2019 timeframe Laughlin literally sent instructors TDY to Vance solely to fly the line because of how far behind they were.

I don't remember this. Been at Vance since 2018. Musta been a T-6 thing.

I think Laughlin still needs to give us our T-1s back that we lent them after the hail damage.... 😄

[CaptainMorgan]

I don't remember this. Been at Vance since 2018. Musta been a T-6 thing.
I think Laughlin still needs to give us our T-1s back that we lent them after the hail damage....

Seeing as Vance is done flying the Legacy jets, and they’re done AMPing them, I doubt you’ll see that happen.


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[Bender]

I don't remember this. Been at Vance since 2018. Musta been a T-6 thing.
I think Laughlin still needs to give us our T-1s back that we lent them after the hail damage....

I say you don’t need them back…

History says Vance will say AMF-S is awesome and ready to go full scale at their base within 0.69 seconds of starting it, so having a T-1 will be moot anyways.

Two years later, everyone else will start and the MTD and syllabus will have improved 0% and the MAF FTU will become one of the worst assignments in the Air Force.

Or not, I’m sure it’ll be fine. Things are going great, it’ll be fine.

~Bendy


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[CaptainMorgan]

Why? We just took civilians fresh off the street with zero flying hours, zero military experience and winged them as 11X pilots in ~6 months. Why would you hypothesize existing MQ-9 pilots would need more TX training than this?
https://www.aetc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3107596/upt-25-a-new-generation-begins/

Aren’t you a Nav? I’m sure your expertise qualifies you to concoct an 18X-11X syllabus.


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[JBueno]

Can UPT/UPT Next/People who identify as "in pilot training" get proficiency advanced? 

[RASH]

Can UPT/UPT Next/People who identify as "in pilot training" get proficiency advanced? 

Isn’t that what happens when you get your wings in 6 months?


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