UPT Next

[BashiChuni]

The product being produced today is noticeably worse than 5 years ago. The cuts to syllabus flying times have been substantial. 
 

no student needs to be PAing an already reduced flying hour syllabus. 
 

the written in stone argument is one you made up. Not sure where that came from. 

[Pooter]

5 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

The product being produced today is noticeably worse than 5 years ago. The cuts to syllabus flying times have been substantial. 
 

no student needs to be PAing an already reduced flying hour syllabus. 
 

the written in stone argument is one you made up. Not sure where that came from. 

It all depends on student ability. I don't know how you can say that no student should PA without knowing their background as well as their performance. I agree with you that we are watering down the standard but from where I sit, the quality drop is happening at the bottom end of the ability spectrum.. not the top. For every PA I've seen in the last 5 years I'll show you 10 students who were reinstated from a CR who shouldn't have been. 

[dream big]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

The product being produced today is noticeably worse than 5 years ago. The cuts to syllabus flying times have been substantial. 
 

no student needs to be PAing an already reduced flying hour syllabus. 
 

the written in stone argument is one you made up. Not sure where that came from. 

And that discrepancy is being offloaded to line IPs in the Ops Squadrons, wasting time on basics instead of prepping Copilots or Wingmen for deployments and advanced missions. To exacerbate things, all the grey beard IPs we used to have are all gone and are happily sipping Mai Thais on their layovers in Hong Kong. Our IP corps is younger and leaner.  
 

Cherry on top is all the senior ACs we had to send back to be UPT instructors. 

[Biff_T]

I feel like I'm watching UPT flying directly into a mountain.   Change my mind lol.

Seriously, wtf happened to upt since I retired in 2018?  I don't really get a lot of news about it other than here.  Just from reading this thread I have deduced that whatever changes they have made have not resulted in costs savings, a pilot shortage fix or superior pilots coming out of the pipeline.  Good job AF!!!

 

[HuggyU2]

26 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

I feel like I'm watching UPT flying directly into a mountain.   Change my mind lol.

This past year of watching my kid go through traditional UPT (not 2.5) was somewhat eye opening to me as I got the first-hand account of training, syllabus, etc.  Some of it was good... a lot of is wasn't.  

Huggy Jr graduated with 65 hours in the T-6 and 72 in the T-1.  Wow... that just seems incredibly low, and with a lot less solo time than I remember during my years in Training Command.  

I went though Vance earlier this year and got a look at the virtual trainers, as well as getting to talk to the T-6 IP's there.  My impression is they are well on the way to finding some really good, new ways to train future UPT students.  Some of the stories from the T-6 IP's I spoke with were very enlightening and positive.  As usual, it sounds like the line IP's are doing a great job with what they are given.  

Much like Edison trying to invent the light bulb... AETC is going to make a lot of mistakes as they create 2.5.  And yes, they will learn and adjust from them.  The eventual solution should be a much better UPT... hopefully soon.  Of course, that's assuming they fund it properly and actually quit skimping on training for the sake of the All Holy Time Line.  

Until AETC started moving toward these new training methodologies, UPT really hadn't changed much in over 50 years.  I'd say it was time to find a better way to do things.  The road to change isn't easy.  I'm confident AETC will be successful... the question is when will that happen?

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by HuggyU2

[CaptainMorgan]

VR is not the answer, yet. They are nowhere near being able to replicate the real life aspects of radio chatter, ATC buffoonery, and realistic weather. It’s cool, and may give some added value, but it is not a replacement for the plane or even a sim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HuggyU2]

15 minutes ago, CaptainMorgan said:

VR is not the answer, yet. They are nowhere near being able to replicate the real life aspects of radio chatter, ATC buffoonery, and realistic weather. It’s cool, and may give some added value, but it is not a replacement for the plane or even a sim.

No one is advocating that it be "a replacement for the plane or even a sim".  It is one of many "tools" available.  If used correctly, many believe it is an excellent training tool.  

We have a new U-2 pilot here that come from a UPT base as a T-6 instructor.  He told me about a student's Dollar Ride after training in the VR device:  said student took off, went to the MOA, was able to stay in the MOA, did a VFR recovery and actually found the VFR Entry point without any IP assistance, and got the plane to Initial.  I'd call that "a significant data point", and shows that the VR device may have a time and place in the UPT syllabus.  

[CaptainMorgan]

No one is advocating that it be "a replacement for the plane or even a sim".  It is one of many "tools" available.  If used correctly, many believe it is an excellent training tool.  
We have a new U-2 pilot here that come from a UPT base as a T-6 instructor.  He told me about a student's Dollar Ride after training in the VR device:  said student took off, went to the MOA, was able to stay in the MOA, did a VFR recovery and actually found the VFR Entry point without any IP assistance, and got the plane to Initial.  I'd call that "a significant data point", and shows that the VR device may have a time and place in the UPT syllabus.  

The problem is AETC is advocating for it as a replacement. Sim/VR only T-1 is supposed to start in January at Vance, with the other bases to follow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HuggyU2]

I stand corrected, then.  Thanks for the post and updated information.  

Edited October 22, 2022 by HuggyU2

[Homestar]

37 minutes ago, CaptainMorgan said:

The problem is AETC is advocating for it as a replacement. Sim/VR only T-1 is supposed to start in January at Vance, with the other bases to follow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a small group tryout only. Still a long way out from VR replacing the T-1. The T-1 is going away anyway, so it will need to be replaced with something.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Homestar
clarity

[Biff_T]

Huggy, that's awesome about your son!  I have three sons and only one that has shown any interest (very little) in flying, let alone becoming an Air Force pilot.  One is going into the Navy and will try to become a SWCC.  I tried to show him the way but he chose the dark side.  

Despite my grudge against change, I agree with you about our AETC line IPs.  They find ways to make pilots with what they get.  I still can't believe they got rid of fix to fixes.  Lol.  I don't know if the automation/new avionics of the new toys makes up for a lack of flight hours, maybe?  But I think the "stress" of flying for real is irreplaceable by the Sim.  

[Arkbird]

On 10/19/2022 at 8:56 PM, nsplayr said:

Hey how's UPT Next going? We lost the thread about a page-and-a-half ago...

What I want is an 18X -> 11X pipeline. ~4-6 months should do it. DA-20 refresher then maybe T-6 only or even straight to the T-7. If you can supposedly make a brand new 11X pilot off the street with UPT Next in ~6 months, shit, you can certainly make an 11X from an 18X who already knows chock-to-chock AF flying, AF pubs, tons of mission stuff, etc.

The AF says it's short of pilots, the airlines say they're short of pilots, well the MDS with the most pilots is the MQ-9 and with satellite landing & recovery / ATLC / LEO satellite ops coming online now, those people are doing everything from engine start to shutdown, including killing our country's enemies. It's one weird trick to having more Air Force pilots (also CC the FAA please 🙏).

I'd love to see a TX pipeline for getting the (typically) younger, more motivate sub-set of 18X MQ-9 pilots into manned platforms and frankly that should lead to shutting down the 18X career field entirely. It was a stop-gap in the first place and everyone who is an aircraft commander should go through UPT, learn the same skills and have the same wings IMHO.

Especially with the only remaining RPA platform eventually sunsetting, 18X is kind of a death sentence for a brand new LT on active duty because there is absolutely not a plan for what to do with you when the Reaper is put out to pasture.

18A here about to start UPT (2.5 syllabus) in a month and this is an interesting concept. Don't agree or disagree with it but I don't think we have many data points on how well 18x do at upt and transitioning to 11x do we? 

[Guardian]

It’s been a while since I’ve said this but I blame fingers Goldfien for all of this.

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, Arkbird said:

18A here about to start UPT (2.5 syllabus) in a month and this is an interesting concept. Don't agree or disagree with it but I don't think we have many data points on how well 18x do at upt and transitioning to 11x do we? 

That’s fantastic man, good look and Godspeed!

While I’d love to see a TX course, shit, if there was the capacity just waterfall every willing and capable 18Xer through UPT 2.5 and call it a day, that’s fine too. Seems like there would be some redundant skills learned but the end product is the same, other than the significant ADSC incurred under the current model.

[Bender]

That’s fantastic man, good look and Godspeed!
While I’d love to see a TX course, shit, if there was the capacity just waterfall every willing and capable 18Xer through UPT 2.5 and call it a day, that’s fine too. Seems like there would be some redundant skills learned but the end product is the same, other than the significant ADSC incurred under the current model.

The last RPA stud I saw go through crushed it, PA’d quite a few rides, and tossed a detailed, critically well thought, multi-page critique of the program.

Might have been a bit of an outlier, but definitely a good thing whenever it happens.


On the flip side, I watch a lot of good students struggle because the syllabus (read courseware) just simply wasn’t developed to teach students to successfully navigate the increased expectations put on them. Most seem to survive, but it’s their own credit…not the system teaching them (outside of the IPs…which has always been the case). It’s more burden on the IPs to get average students across the line now. The 19th is working updates, but man…we should put a pilot or 2 in the courseware shop.

If things go they way I think/want them to go, any 18X advantage would become clear in short order leading to a different expectation. That doesn’t mean it would pan out, but that the data would show the reality. Too many people work off anecdotal data…even the programming guys are in no man land right now looking at historical data that is an apple to the current orange.


~Bendy


Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network mobile app

[Biff_T]

Did the 18Xs go through IFS or the other one (IFF?)? 

 

Edit: Replace IFF with IFT.  Please forgive me for hitting the wrong key and making CaptainMorgan upset.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by Biff_T
Good times

[CaptainMorgan]

Did the 18Xs go through IFS or the other one (IFF?)? 

Are you f*clking stupid?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Are you f*clking stupid?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Calm down clown shoes.  

Yes I'm stupid. I flew helicopters I can barely read.  

I didn't follow what/who RPA dudes were doing when I was in.  My bad coach.   

Did someone touch you when you went through IFS?  Lol

Edited October 23, 2022 by Biff_T
I love you.

[Arkbird]

2 hours ago, Biff_T said:

Did the 18Xs go through IFS or the other one (IFF?)? 

 

Edit: Replace IFF with IFT.  Please forgive me for hitting the wrong key and making CaptainMorgan upset.  

Yeah it's the full 8 week syllabus so we did what the pilots did. After the first pattern solo we did the CSO syllabus with DR routes and more solos sprinkled in plus a "cross country" stop in Denver. I think we flew into Front Range for lunch.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Arkbird

[nsplayr]

Yea, all 18Xers for the last while go through Pueblo DA-20s or had a PPL already.

[Biff_T]

Ok, thanks. 

I'm pretty sure they have as good a chance of making it in UPT as the next dude.  If 18Xs don't have aircraft to fly, send them to UPT full syllabus plus 10 yeas ADSC.  Make them feel the pain lol.  

Their career progression is probably f-d anyways so going to fly an aircraft as a FGO Wingman/Co Pilot  wouldn't kill a career (if they even cared) that's dead.  They can then just be line fliers.  Salty FGO Wingmen and Co Pilots learning to fly.   Sounds like a good deal. Lol

[dream big]

7 hours ago, Guardian said:

It’s been a while since I’ve said this but I blame fingers Goldfien for all of this.

2016 wasn’t the best time to take command as CSAF. We were on the tail end of the Obama Admin gutting of the military and the effects of sequestration all while cleaning up the messes of the Arab Spring. It was also about the time where the floodgates opened to the airlines and senior leaders changed their tone from “stop whining we can replace you” (words from a former AETC commander to an SOS class in 2015) to “oh shit we got to fix retention.” 

[Guardian]

2016 wasn’t the best time to take command as CSAF. We were on the tail end of the Obama Admin gutting of the military and the effects of sequestration all while cleaning up the messes of the Arab Spring. It was also about the time where the floodgates opened to the airlines and senior leaders changed their tone from “stop whining we can replace you” (words from a former AETC commander to an SOS class in 2015) to “oh shit we got to fix retention.” 

Doesn’t excuse his decisions. And fingers Goldfien was one of those “we can replace you” and “you’re a volunteer” types.

[Biff_T]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:46 PM, CaptainMorgan said:

No thanks. I’d rather a clean slate than an 18X (I am a pilot!) any day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did you train any prior Navs or enlisted aviators during upt?  Were they all d-bags during UPT or did they do ok?  I was never a UPT/IP so I don't have the knowledge you might have regarding this but I do know a few dudes who flew in a different capacity before going to pilot training and they seemed to do fine (and some even excelled).  What's the difference?  You can squash their "I'm a pilot" attitude as an IP.  That's part of the fun.  UPT is where they have to put their money where their mouths are. 

Also, would you really have heartburn PAing a guy through an instrument sortie who had 2-3 thousand hours flying for the airlines?   Not that holding patterns, weather and ILS's don't exist in the airline world or anything.  Last time I  checked, that type of flying is not unique to the military.  Except for maybe using a TACAN, UHF and shittier avionics, it's all the same baby!

I love you.  

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Biff_T
Words are hard

[Standby]

1 hour ago, Biff_T said:

Did you train any prior Navs or enlisted aviators during upt?

I’m betting be was never a UPT IP. Or if he was, definitely a Laughlin FAIP. Some of the biggest douchers with chips on their shoulders were to be found there.