UPT Next

[BashiChuni]

On 10/22/2022 at 12:48 AM, Pooter said:

It all depends on student ability. I don't know how you can say that no student should PA without knowing their background as well as their performance. I agree with you that we are watering down the standard but from where I sit, the quality drop is happening at the bottom end of the ability spectrum.. not the top. For every PA I've seen in the last 5 years I'll show you 10 students who were reinstated from a CR who shouldn't have been. 

Good point about the CR

[HuggyU2]

2 hours ago, Standby said:

...definitely a Laughlin FAIP. Some of the biggest douchers with chips on their shoulders were to be found there.

Thanks for that.  It helps me understand why my fellow squadron mates treat me like they do.  

#enlightened     #olddelriofaip     

[CaptainMorgan]

I’m betting be was never a UPT IP. Or if he was, definitely a Laughlin FAIP. Some of the biggest douchers with chips on their shoulders were to be found there.

Wrong on both counts, but better luck next time.


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[hindsight2020]

[Standby]

1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

I didn’t fully clarify my statement. There were a ton of humble, willing to teach FAIPs there. They certainly outnumbered the minority I called out earlier. At the same time, though, that place was one of the weirdest installations and most toxic environments I have ever observed. I have never seen a more wrongfully entitled, borderline affluenza-like afflicted group of lieutenants in my life. You’d think these dudes flew night 1 of Desert Storm based on their attitudes and outward disdain to their future flight leads. 
 

Then again, I’m preaching to the choir. Thank you for your service. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Standby

[TreeA10]

6 hours ago, Biff_T said:

Did you train any prior Navs or enlisted aviators during upt?  Were they all d-bags during UPT or did they do ok?  I was never a UPT/IP so I don't have the knowledge you might have regarding this but I do know a few dudes who flew in a different capacity before going to pilot training and they seemed to do fine (and some even excelled).  What's the difference?  You can squash their "I'm a pilot" attitude as an IP.  That's part of the fun.  UPT is where they have to put their money where their mouths are. 

Also, would you really have heartburn PAing a guy through an instrument sortie who had 2-3 thousand hours flying for the airlines?   Not that holding patterns, weather and ILS's don't exist in the airline world or anything.  Last time I  checked, that type of flying is not unique to the military.  Except for maybe using a TACAN, UHF and shittier avionics, it's all the same baby!

I love you.  

 

In general, I think the PA thing is not a good idea. However, back in the day when dinosaurs ruled the earth, I was instructing a student that was a F-4G EWO. Took him out on his first ride in the T-38 and he was pretty much flying with little input from me. He earned an Excellent on the ride which is unheard of. Took him out on his second ride with the same results. I would have soloed him. I did catch grief from my flight commander because he was worried about showing grade progression. I said, "You fly with him" and he did and after the flight told me he agreed with me. 

But that was very rare. Most students need as much air time as they can get because plans rarely go as expected. If the VR world introduces the unexpected, I might buy that. However, nothing simulates the no kidding "I could get killed" criteria as the real jet which makes for serious judgement judging criteria. 

[Biff_T]

54 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

In general, I think the PA thing is not a good idea. However, back in the day when dinosaurs ruled the earth, I was instructing a student that was a F-4G EWO. Took him out on his first ride in the T-38 and he was pretty much flying with little input from me. He earned an Excellent on the ride which is unheard of. Took him out on his second ride with the same results. I would have soloed him. I did catch grief from my flight commander because he was worried about showing grade progression. I said, "You fly with him" and he did and after the flight told me he agreed with me. 

But that was very rare. Most students need as much air time as they can get because plans rarely go as expected. If the VR world introduces the unexpected, I might buy that. However, nothing simulates the no kidding "I could get killed" criteria as the real jet which makes for serious judgement judging criteria. 

I wouldn’t expect too many PAs in UPT.  There's always something to learn, right?  I'd imagine PAing an airline dude on an instrument sortie may be few and far between.  

I know I needed every sortie 😆 

[O Face]

Or how about we reward their skills and preparation by giving them more solo flight time with the training blocks that would otherwise be flushed in a PA?  Let’s not short students flight time and experience that is too low already. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by O Face
Spelling

[Biff_T]

19 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Wrong on both counts, but better luck next time.


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[Air_Space]

Been running 2.5 for awhile as a 38 IP so here's my take.

The whole general thought process behind the syllabus change was a good idea but in typical AF fashion got completely f**ked along the way.

VR is good but lacks in a lot of crucial ways. It isn't and should never be a replacement for time in the seat (see T1 divestment). I do see students better prepared on their initial rides in each block of training as a result. The problem is a lot of IPs just don't treat these sims as important so the effort they put in is minimal. This results in poor habit patterns or just less learned because IPs will fill these to do their other queep while "proctoring" the sim.

Because the syllabus is such a change and continues to change it results in a ton of work for the line IPs. There's more paperwork per student with the milestone system. More gradebook scrubs to find things that will block progress. And just overall more events because of the VR sims with our already shit manning. 

PR/PA shouldn't be used as a timeline tool. Our leadership has said so time and time again. But in the end guess what? It does. The UPT timeline is hugeeee!!!! So between more events with less IPs and engine time there's so much pressure whether actual or not on the flight commanders to keep the conveyor belt moving. 

The biggest win in my opinion is the CRAFT system. Don't remember what it stands for but it don't matter. These are syllabus required classes to work on their mental and physical ability. It works on task management, strength and endurance training, and even nutrition. It has helped studs pass the fuge (because this generation apparently can't take care of themselves) and improve their ability to dig out of holes with the task management mind games. 

 

Overall on the 38 side the syllabus is OK but has significant holes. More spoon feeding them the information in the form of more green suit lead academics and VR sims. More options in each block of training (both good and bad). Leveraging tech to see things on the ground. And most importantly taking care of the human system. Does it make better pilots, probably not. Does it make worse pilots, I don't think so

Edited October 25, 2022 by Air_Space

[Lord Ratner]

On 10/23/2022 at 12:23 AM, CaptainMorgan said:

Are you f*clking stupid?


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Do you and SurelySerious fight over who gets to sit on the other's lap when you yell at people on baseops for upsetting the fighter pilot gods?

[di1630]

UPT 2.5 seems like growing pains in a transition that I think needs to happen. People need to get used to training different than we have.

These kids will get to FTU in a few years and find much of the training is sim based and BETTER than flying the mission because we don’t have any 300 mile long airspace to relocate reality.

They’ll be the generation that makes it better, as right now the IPs have baggage from thinking flying must be better.

I appreciate the updates from you guys firsthand.

My UPT 2.5 grads do just fine in the FTU very little difference noted between them and traditional.

[twoTangoKilo]

Newcomer to this thread, and almost afraid to awaken it given what I've read over the last few pages.  But before starting   a new UPT 2.5 thread, I wanted to check in here and see if anyone could pass on some relevant experience either instructing or going through the new curriculum?  Doesn't seem to be a lot of recent info on what's going on.  I will be tracking T-1's and am curious about the divestment.

[ClearedHot]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:04 PM, HuggyU2 said:

Thanks for that.  It helps me understand why my fellow squadron mates treat me like they do.  

#enlightened     #olddelriofaip     

In your defense the FAIP MAFIA wasn't really established in your day.  See below for Pic of Huggy completing BIP.

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, twoTangoKilo said:

I will be tracking T-1's and am curious about the divestment.

Depends on your base

[DDive78]

At Columbus it’s a bit of a cluster f… number of studs per class is too high for the amount of IPs which leads to bad continuity of training per stud, agenda driven simulator IPs, first all sim T-1 class supposedly starts August/September. 
 

Not to mention just the poorly ordered syllabus overall which is supposedly changing as well soon. 

[di1630]

It’ll be messy at first like all new programs but will get better.

Moving to sims is good. I’m excited for FTU next to up the sim footprint and streamline fighter training out of incapable moas and ranges.

Needs to happen.


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[JimNtexas]

 

I'm a mere long retired nav, but

[yzl337]

19 hours ago, stickshakergoaround said:

Just finished 2.5, I flew with nearly every IP in both squadrons in T6's and never the same IP more than three times in T1's. Pretty frustrating at first with a lot of tech-cedure being taught, but overall I didn't have a super hard time with it. The expanse of perspectives was definitely helpful in a lot of ways. Most IPs I flew with, especially in T1onderland, were super cool about telling you how they like to do certain things but allowing you to accomplish it how you wanted to (if you had already started to develop certain habit patterns etc). 

In 50 sorties you flew with 120-140 IPs? How many AT, 88, 89 sorties did you have?

 

[hindsight2020]

Well, that's the FTUs problem to sort out now. Train. Document. Punt. Profit. My AF Core Values. 😄 

Edited May 4, 2023 by hindsight2020

[Boomer6]

Wait until they start making IFF guys teach TP Stalls when FBF gets up and running.

[brabus]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:22 PM, hindsight2020 said:

Well, that's the FTUs problem to sort out now. Train. Document. Punt. Profit. My AF Core Values. 😄 

Don’t think for a second UPT has the market cornered on that gameplan!

[McJay Pilot]

Nothing like a rolling ETIC… from the factory!

https://www.defenseone.com/defense-systems/2023/05/tardy-training-jet-reveals-limits-digital-design-air-force-says/386687/

[Danger41]

JFC this stuff pisses me off. “Boeing underbid” by $1 billion. They knew it and just keep getting away with it because they know they can. 
 

And the egress system? Aces II doesn’t work anymore?

[LookieRookie]

17 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

JFC this stuff pisses me off. “Boeing underbid” by $1 billion. They knew it and just keep getting away with it because they know they can. 
 

And the egress system? Aces II doesn’t work anymore?

they underbid by a lot more than 1 billion.

 

 it’s an Aces V