UPT Next

[bfargin]

42 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

In the T-6 it’s extended trail vs close trail.  How close is close trail in the 38?

This looks about like what I remember from t-38s back at Willie

[hindsight2020]

ooh story time.

So barrel rolls are not considered over-the-top maneuvering proper. As @LookieRookie highlighted already, barrel rolls in c-trail are common and, generally a non-event. That said, I have seen weaksauce IPs pork one for the record books. So there I was....

...I'm -2, lead is running us through the dog and pony show, my student is flying it for proficiency block. Next thing I know, lead guy damn near puts me lost wingman approaching IMC 40 degrees NL and 420 bills at one ship length. I saw the upset early, broke out right above the cloud base and KIO barely avoiding the goo. It was all asses and elbows.

Since I floor saved, I figured I'd be higher than him, so I was looking for him to come out the goo mid level to slightly lower than me. haha nope. Fucker came out on the top side of that cloud at like 50 NH like an Atlas V. These two cosmonauts were straight up passengers at that point, heading to low earth orbit as far I could surmise. The irony of Houston Center being our controlling agency did not escape me one bit at that very moment lol.

Back on the ground, I assumed this was boilerplate proficiency block student shenanigans (typical "it's been a minute since I led one of these sir"). So I was ready to tear his student a new one on the ground. But then coo coo bird IP copped in the bar pre-debrief that he was in fact the one on the controls demo'ing it for the student when the wholesale pork antics ensue. 

So yeah, barrel rolls in close trail can get spicy. Occupational hazard of this pilot fOrGiNg biznazz. 😄 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by hindsight2020

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Good luck with that. With the current syllabus we have about 25 hours of trans/nav, and some can barely land the plane. 25 hours of form/AD/AR with MIF as a fair. Where in there are we supposed to teach all your “advanced” training that isn’t even relevant to everyone?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No doubt this is a rant on the internet with about 0.69% chance of happening but f it it's BO dot net and if it's what you think express yourself...

Curious and interested to your point on being relevant to everyone, does every concept or task taught in the T-1 syllabus have to be one that the student will be directly executing in their first assignment or is there value in exposing them to a variety of concepts to make them better aviators and leaders?  We lament stovepipes in the Line of the AF culture, well this is one way to establish links between communities.

Not being douchey, naïve or cheesy in that question but there is a value IMHO to exposing them to the maximum range of air mobility operations (and ideally others too in a more robust crew bound syllabus).

These grads will serve in liaison, planner and watch officer positions, some will cross flow, some will rotate to staff, exchange tours, etc... having a basic knowledge of and some limited experience in what the other half of the mobility / big wing force is doing is valuable methinks.

If 50 hours is not enough, then argue for more.  Easy for me to say but if what we have now is not working, what they are proposing is not going to work either.  We venerate renegades in 'Merica, sounds like now is the time to for someone with a bird or star from the heavy world to do so.

The next generation of heavy aviators are going into a different operational environment, with capable foes that will strike their bases, target their platforms and require a different mentality than I experienced many moons ago in AMC.  Starting in their specialized flying track to build that aviator who thinks in those terms is necessary.

Now, I'll finish my beer

[LookieRookie]

20 hours ago, HeloDude said:

In the T-6 it’s extended trail vs close trail.  How close is close trail in the 38?

1-2 ship lengths, slightly below

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, LookieRookie said:

1-2 ship lengths, slightly below

You’re doing barrel rolls over a T-38 1-2 ship lengths away?

[SurelySerious]

You’re doing barrel rolls over a T-38 1-2 ship lengths away?

Number 2 is 1-2 back, slightly below as 1 does a barrel roll. 2 stays under and behind. It’s not too cosmic.

[HeloDude]

4 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Number 2 is 1-2 back, slightly below as 1 does a barrel roll. 2 stays under and behind. It’s not too cosmic.

Just know that in the T-6 you can’t be that close, that’s why I was surprised.  Back in my T-37 days as a stud I remember the IPs occasionally doing ET3 and if I had to guess the range was similar to that of the T-6.

[SurelySerious]

Just know that in the T-6 you can’t be that close, that’s why I was surprised.  Back in my T-37 days as a stud I remember the IPs occasionally doing ET3 and if I had to guess the range was similar to that of the T-6.

I don’t remember T-6 sight picture for it, but that vid is a decent example for the 38. I’m sure there are better, but it’s something.

[LookieRookie]

40 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Just know that in the T-6 you can’t be that close, that’s why I was surprised.  Back in my T-37 days as a stud I remember the IPs occasionally doing ET3 and if I had to guess the range was similar to that of the T-6.

Yes the T-38 isn’t a T-6. A T-38 can also go past 90* at 500 AGL.

[VMFA187]

On 5/24/2023 at 6:04 PM, Boomer6 said:

It’s kind of like flying a LL out of RND. How many times do we need to take a bird in one of the worst Turkey Vulture areas in the US at 500 ft and 400 KCAS before we decide the LL can be effectively taught at 1000 AGL. Or how long will RND continue to call Birds low when every other USAF base in the world would be calling birds MOD if not bird Severe. The AF does a lot of stupid shit, especially in AETC. I don’t see anyone campaigning at 19th AF to make meaningful changes. Checks in the mail on DET 24…

Why not do low levels at 5k'? 

I'm not an old dude and I see the degradation in the ability of students to adapt because we have coddled them due to changing situations based on tactics which don't necessitate visual formation keeping which doesn't them better aviators.

They're more lethal, but that is due to the platform and level of SA provided by a platform that shows you everything in a beautiful picture which requires nothing more than the press of a button and a pickle depression.

For better or worse, in Fat(test) Amy they only ever have to fly form for two FTU/FRS/RAG events and then only for the break. 

What happens when link(s) goes out? 

I think you should push students at the FTU/FRS/RAG and once they get to the CAF/fleet because the more you sweat... The less you bleed. We haven't had to bleed in 50 years, time will tell. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by VMFA187

[Boomer6]

36 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Why not do low levels at 5k'? 

I'm not an old dude and I see the degradation in ability of students to adapt because we have coddled them to changing situations based on tactics which don't necessitate visual formation which doesn't them better aviators.

They're more lethal, but that is due to the platform and level of SA provided by a platform that shows you everything in a beautiful picture and requires nothing more than the press of a button and a pickle depression.

For better or worse, in Fat(test) Amy they only ever have to fly form for two FTU/FRS/RAG events and then only for then only for the break. 

What happens when link(s) goes out? 

I think you should push students at the FTU/FRS/RAG and once they get to the CAF/fleet because the more you sweat... The less you bleed. We haven't had to bleed in 50 years, time will tell. 

100% agree. At UPT/FTU students should definitely be pushed, instead of the current trend of pushing training along to the CAF to speed up UPT/FTU throughout. When it comes to PIT UIPs flying at RND though, sometimes I wonder if it’s not better to take a minimal loss in training by flying a little higher to avoid the pterodactyls.

[VMFA187]

16 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

100% agree. At UPT/FTU students should definitely be pushed, instead of the current trend of pushing training along to the CAF to speed up UPT/FTU throughout. When it comes to PIT UIPs flying at RND though, sometimes I wonder if it’s not better to take a minimal loss in training by flying a little higher to avoid the pterodactyls.

My point was only that you can mitigate risk to a certain degree. If BASH is high, don't fly. If it's low, 200'. 

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, LookieRookie said:

Yes the T-38 isn’t a T-6. A T-38 can also go past 90* at 500 AGL.

The confusion on my part was the barrel roll in close trail vs extended trail.  The video posted helped clear that up.  As for the two aircraft being different, I did a google search and your post checks lol.

[brabus]

12 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

Why not do low levels at 5k'? 

I'm not an old dude and I see the degradation in the ability of students to adapt because we have coddled them due to changing situations based on tactics which don't necessitate visual formation keeping which doesn't them better aviators.

They're more lethal, but that is due to the platform and level of SA provided by a platform that shows you everything in a beautiful picture which requires nothing more than the press of a button and a pickle depression.

For better or worse, in Fat(test) Amy they only ever have to fly form for two FTU/FRS/RAG events and then only for the break. 

What happens when link(s) goes out? 

I think you should push students at the FTU/FRS/RAG and once they get to the CAF/fleet because the more you sweat... The less you bleed. We haven't had to bleed in 50 years, time will tell. 

I understand your general point, and I’ve been seeing a lack of airmanship for years. But what exactly do you mean by “push students…to make them sweat?” Flying form is a non-issue for the tons of F-35 FNGs I’ve flown with, no need for them to do more “close work.” If your answer to “the link goes out” is visual form when doing anything more than CAS, you have a gap in knowledge/understanding of some things. 
 

I grew up in the “last world” of no link/helmet, green screens, pie-in-the-sky/geo ref to stay in the airspace (in the CAF mind you), stay visual at all costs even to detriment of mission accomplishment, and even did 10 timers with live CBU. I get it, but none of that is where we are today - all the old-minded guys (age agnostic) need to move on or get out. I think the new guys are “sweated” a ton more than we were at their age, just in different ways. I do however maintain general airmanship/SA when the toys go away is worse nowadays. 

[HuggyU2]

16 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

1-2 ship lengths, slightly below

Which is 50'-100'.

No one I flew with strived for anything greater than 50'.  Many flew it tighter than that.  

[VMFA187]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

I understand your general point, and I’ve been seeing a lack of airmanship for years. But what exactly do you mean by “push students…to make them sweat?” Flying form is a non-issue for the tons of F-35 FNGs I’ve flown with, no need for them to do more “close work.” If your answer to “the link goes out” is visual form when doing anything more than CAS, you have a gap in knowledge/understanding of some things. 
 

I grew up in the “last world” of no link/helmet, green screens, pie-in-the-sky/geo ref to stay in the airspace (in the CAF mind you), stay visual at all costs even to detriment of mission accomplishment, and even did 10 timers with live CBU. I get it, but none of that is where we are today - all the old-minded guys (age agnostic) need to move on or get out. I think the new guys are “sweated” a ton more than we were at their age, just in different ways. I do however maintain general airmanship/SA when the toys go away is worse nowadays. 

I'm fully aware that visual formations are not survivable given the threats we face today. I mean to add stress in ways that you can to force our pilots to cope adequately because that stress will be added in some form or another when they see real combat. 

[brabus]

Gotcha. Well at least in my experience in the CAF, the guys are challenged well. And if that’s not happening at some squadrons, then the patch, DO, and CC need to fix that immediately. 

[hindsight2020]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:26 PM, HeloDude said:

Just know that in the T-6 you can’t be that close, that’s why I was surprised. 

But you're wrong. The close trail parameters are identical in the T-6: 1-2 ship lengths, slightly below. And I have been that "close" aplenty in the T-6 as in the T-38, as an IP on both.

[Bigred]

12 hours ago, brabus said:

I do however maintain general airmanship/SA when the toys go away is worse nowadays. 

I’d say that validates his point. 
 

In my opinion, something like form landings in UPT seem less about necessity out in the CAF than it was about teaching precision. That precision transfers over to other aspects of flying, especially when it becomes almost second nature. 
 

Do you absolutely need to learn form landings? No, but if it’s not flown it should be replaced with something that also demands a high degree of precision. 
 

 

[HeloDude]

40 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

But you're wrong. The close trail parameters are identical in the T-6: 1-2 ship lengths, slightly below. And I have been that "close" aplenty in the T-6 as in the T-38, as an IP on both.

You did a barrel roll in the T-6 while in close trail?  When and where?

[hindsight2020]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

You did a barrel roll in the T-6 while in close trail?  When and where?

non-sequitur response. 

[Pooter]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

You did a barrel roll in the T-6 while in close trail?  When and where?

Countless times, all over the place, on bro level CT sorties. Never with a student or a bob. Can confirm the plane flies fine upside down and did not spontaneously explode

[HeloDude]

9 hours ago, Pooter said:

Countless times, all over the place, on bro level CT sorties. Never with a student or a bob. Can confirm the plane flies fine upside down and did not spontaneously explode

What are the bank limitations during close trail in the T-6?  Asking for a friend…

[Biff_T]

I did a lag roll pretty close to my form partner in T-6s.  My instructor let me do it.  It was my rec ride for form in T-6s.  Other than my checkride the next day, it was one of my last memories of flying upside down, as I tracked helos.  

[HossHarris]

1 hour ago, Biff_T said:

I did a lag roll pretty close to my form partner in T-6s.  My instructor let me do it.  It was my rec ride for form in T-6s.  Other than my checkride the next day, it was one of my last memories of flying upside down, as I tracked helos.  

You can fly upside down in helos!  
 

(once)