Atlas 767 (Amazon livery) Down

[HossHarris]

2 hours ago, SocialD said:

Reminded me of some good videos.  While dated videos, if you've never flown airlines, they're actually pretty good videos.  There are about 3 or 4 of them and they're all really good and still very relevant. 

 

Children of the Magenta Line.

Are they any good?

[Hacker]

2 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

Are they any good?

IMHO all of the AAMP videos are excellent.

Saying so, especially among non-military background airline pilots, is guaranteed to generate a response.

[HossHarris]

12 hours ago, Hacker said:

IMHO all of the AAMP videos are excellent.

Saying so, especially among non-military background airline pilots, is guaranteed to generate a response.

[Hacker]

2 hours ago, Hawg15 said:

Is it really realistic that they accidentally wound up almost 50 degrees nose low responding to a power increase? I’ve never flown a big old airliner, I just feel it would take a good amount of time to get that nose low without a malfunction, and would be incredibly uncomfortable if you happen to look out the window. But I’m just a guy that knows nothing about computers being involved in controlling a plane. 

The speculation that I've heard was that there was a combination of basically spatial D and poor airmanship.

The spatial D was the minor upset while IMC, perhaps with a somatogravic "head-up illusion" where the FO perceived the acceleration as a more dramatic pitch-up than what actually occurred (and requiring a more dramatic pitch-down to counter).  It may have also been combined with a flight director commanding something that also didn't add up in the FO's mind.

The poor airmanship was just the inability to fight through the startle effect, turn off the automation, get on the dials, and just fly the airplane.

One of the 767 sim instructors I know said it was like a 4-5 second duration, full-yoke-forward input required to get to 49 degrees nose low.  The only way I can see that is with the FO just basically becoming frozen by the startle effect and unable to mentally sort out what was happening.

Sometimes good pilots make huge mistakes.  Sometimes poor pilots make even bigger ones.

[Hacker]

12 hours ago, HossHarris said:

Oh, no, I got your mockery of the post you quoted...I was steering that part of the convo in a different direction.

[SocialD]

Are they any good?

Lol, that's funny. 14 hour flight followed by 4 or 5 drinks = no proofreading, but that's just quibbling. Copy shot.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[M2]

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Crew-said-Boeing-767-stalled-before-Houston-area-14930298.php

[D_Vezencuando]

The Chronicle failed to put that 'stall' statement in context.  Match the FO Hot Mic time stamp (12:38:48.0) to the Flight Data Recorder output: aircraft was over 20 degrees nose low, passing through 275 KIAS, and moments from reaching a 20,000 ft/min descent.

G-dspeed fellas. Tragic CRM lesson.

NTSB Docket:

p.21 FDR Factual Report

p.52 CVR Factual Report

 

[Breckey]

[Orbit]

Does the NTSB post this anywhere else? Since they decided to remove youtube access on nipr.

[fox two]

"The autopilot entered the go-around mode"

That's ambiguous...did someone physically press the GA button? On purpose or otherwise?

Edited July 15, 2020 by fox two

[Orbit]

8 minutes ago, fox two said:

"The autopilot entered the go-around mode"

That's ambiguous...did someone physically press the GA button? On purpose or otherwise?

From the wording of it (https://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c/0001&opt=0) it sounds like when he was guarding the speed brakes he might have bumped it (on the throttles). 

[BashiChuni]

Hard to imagine why the captain didn’t immediately take the jet

[D_Vezencuando]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am3Q2LsPIk4

NTSB Board Meeting posted to YouTube.

[BFM this]

On 7/14/2020 at 10:36 PM, BashiChuni said:

Hard to imagine why the captain didn’t immediately take the jet

The FO’s incompetence and the CA’s competence intersected well below the available recovery window in this circumstance.

FO made an input well outside  reasonable expectation, so much so that it produced a startle effect in the CA, fatally delaying the attempted recovery on his part.  

An antidote could have been a timely and assertive “MY AIRCRAFT” from the CA, but given the data, even that is left to doubt; regardless, no such declaration was recorded on the CVR.

[HuggyU2]

It's been a big eye-opener to see the lack of proficiency (mainly due to having never trained to it) of many commercial pilots when it comes to unusual attitudes.  

[Sprkt69]

5 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

It's been a big eye-opener to see the lack of proficiency (mainly due to having never trained to it) of many commercial pilots when it comes to unusual attitudes.  

It’s what you get when the mentality is to train to never get into an unusual attitude in the first place. Just look at stall training 

[Hacker]

11 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

It's been a big eye-opener to see the lack of proficiency (mainly due to having never trained to it) of many commercial pilots when it comes to unusual attitudes.  

Just think of all the fellas you and I fly with who have *never* been upside-down in an aircraft.

When I fly with someone who is in that category, I usually encourage them to go buy an hour or two of aerobatic instruction for their own airmanship development. I have been surprised to hear many folks respond with either,

"...if I needed to know that, the company would train me to do it."

or

"...being upside-down in a Pitts doesn't teach me anything about what to do if it happens in a 767."

So, literally, these individuals are not concerned about their first time being inverted in an airplane being in a transport-category aircraft and it occurring at an unplanned/unexpected time. SMH.

[ThreeHoler]

It’s what you get when the mentality is to train to never get into an unusual attitude in the first place. Just look at stall training 

Stall/upset training has recently changed for the better. We are way behind on it in the AF for big jets. We teach great stall recovery for small trainers though!

[brabus]

8 hours ago, Hacker said:

When I fly with someone who is in that category, I usually encourage them to go buy an hour or two of aerobatic instruction for their own airmanship development.

It amazes me how much some professional pilots (mil and civ) can lack humility/scoff at other types of flying or specific training. I have a couple thousand hours in fighters, but landing a tail wheel the first couple flights felt like I might as well be back in UPT. It’s been fun as hell learning TW/GA aerobatics, and it has absolutely made me a better pilot overall. Every pilot should do it as soon as they can afford to. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by brabus

[SocialD]

Even for mil guys, an upset recovery training course (UPRT) is definitely money well spent, especially if you fly any amount of GA.  Big 2, to Hacker/Brabus posts...and yes tailwheel flying is where it's at, definitely makes you a better pilot.  At a minimum, UPRT should be required training a commercial ticket.  Also, check out the videos I linked above.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by SocialD

[Hopefulflyer389]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

It amazes me how much some professional pilots (mil and civ) can lack humility/scoff at other types of flying or specific training. I have a couple thousand hours in fighters, but landing a tail wheel the first couple flights felt like I might as well be back in UPT. It’s been fun as hell learning TW/GA aerobatics, and it has absolutely made me a better pilot overall. Every pilot should do it as soon as they can afford to. 

I second your comment on the tail wheel. Your hours/experience is far beyond where I’m at right now, but I feel that I learned more about stick and rudder skills when getting my tail wheel endorsement. 

[FLEA]

12 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

 

Stall/upset training has recently changed for the better. We are way behind on it in the AF for big jets. We teach great stall recovery for small trainers though!

 

I just did a stall/upset recovery module for my FTU. Can you elaborate whats changed. I wonder if our FTU is up to the times. (Doubt it)

[ThreeHoler]

I just did a stall/upset recovery module for my FTU. Can you elaborate whats changed. I wonder if our FTU is up to the times. (Doubt it)

For clarity: AF stall/upset training is largely unchanged and only good for small aircraft like our trainers. Maybe our fighters, I don’t know I don’t fly them.

FAA AC 120-109 and AC 120-111 are the changes to which I was referring. If you’ve gone through an enhanced stall/upset recovery syllabus it is eye opening.

Executive summary: “max relax roll” and minimizing altitude loss in most large aircraft is not the best way to recover.

[FLEA]

5 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

 

For clarity: AF stall/upset training is largely unchanged and only good for small aircraft like our trainers. Maybe our fighters, I don’t know I don’t fly them.

FAA AC 120-109 and AC 120-111 are the changes to which I was referring. If you’ve gone through an enhanced stall/upset recovery syllabus it is eye opening.

Executive summary: “max relax roll” and minimizing altitude loss in most large aircraft is not the best way to recover.

 

Thanks for the circular #s. I'm going to look them up.