UPT/Military vs. Civilian ratings

[Metalhead731]

I have a general question about flight training with the military translating into the civilian world. If someone enters UPT without a license and works their way through flight school, do they earn instrument ratings, multi engine ratings, etc. just like they would in the civilian world? How would that be applied if they don’t have a PPL? Are they automatically applied to their civilian ratings or would a pilot have to sit for a written/oral/practical exam as a civilian as well?

 

I’m assuming the knowledge is the same or very similar. Military pilots have to know how to fly instrument approaches and multi engine aircraft. 

 

As a follow-up, does a military pilot require a commercial license as well? They are being paid to fly. Or is there an exception for the military? How does this translate to civilian?

 

Thanks in advance for any input!

[nunya]

Search for milcomp.  You get it all automatically.

 

[pilot]

Short answer: a military flight school syllabus is different than a pt 61/141 syllabus. But the end result is a mil pilot can do a comp written test and get a commercial/instrument rating for the category/class/type in which he is rated in the military (rated meaning he’s finished the flight school program and earned wings).

Edited April 21, 2019 by pilot

[viper154]

Ya what was said above. Most the UPT bases have a dude that does the testing/paperwork the day after you graduate. You pay a fee, they teach you the commercial test, you take the test, a few weeks later you get your license in the mail. T-1 guys get a multi engine commercial, I believe 38s get the same now. Not sure about the whirlybird guys. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by viper154

[Gazmo]

You will bypass PPL if you don't have one and go straight to commercial/instrument. You can also get a CFII when you become an instructor (MEI if you are a multi-engine IP). The only thing you can't get right now, which I foresee changing as the commercial world starts to run out of highly qualified pilots, is the ATP. Doesn't matter what you fly in the military. You will need to go take an ATP checkride in a light twin to get an ATP, which is downright ridiculous.

[pilot]

1 hour ago, Gazmo said:

You will bypass PPL if you don't have one and go straight to commercial/instrument. You can also get a CFII when you become an instructor (MEI if you are a multi-engine IP). The only thing you can't get right now, which I foresee changing as the commercial world starts to run out of highly qualified pilots, is the ATP. Doesn't matter what you fly in the military. You will need to go take an ATP checkride in a light twin to get an ATP, which is downright ridiculous.

Or you can just do the ATP written and take your ATP practical in conjunction with your initial checkride/type ride at a 121 carrier if/when they offer that. Currently that’s done at all the regionals, but not the majors (which is why most mil fixed wing guys end up doing the ATP ride in a light twin), but I see the same thing happening at majors before I see the FAA changing the rule to MilComp the ATP. 

[Hawg15]

Like everyone said, there’s the milcomp tests to award all the civilian equivalent ratings for your military experience.

Also, as someone who went through the civilian training before doing military flight school. AF training is much, much better than my civilian training. It made me realize that the majority of non-airline civilian pilots are really incompetent and dangerous. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Hawg15

[ayz33]

1 hour ago, Hawg15 said:

Like everyone said, there’s the milcomp tests to award all the civilian equivalent ratings for your military experience.

Also, as someone who went through the civilian training before doing military flight school. AF training is much, much better than my civilian training. It made me realize that the majority of non-airline civilian pilots are really incompetent and dangerous. 

That’s good to know and also what I expected. Just finished my flight school training and slated to go to upt next year. I’m sure the training is 200x better considering you do it every day and have way better instructors 

[BFM this]

8 hours ago, viper154 said:

Ya what was said above. Most the UPT bases have a dude that does the testing/paperwork the day after you graduate. You pay a fee, they teach you the commercial test, you take the test, a few weeks later you get your license in the mail. T-1 guys get a multi engine commercial, I believe 38s get the same now. Not sure about the whirlybird guys. 

Correct me if I’m wrong (the mighty Tweet reigned in my time), but I believe you’ll get Commercial AMEL, ASEL, IA, counting the T6 time.

[frog]

2 hours ago, Hawg15 said:

It made me realize that the majority of non-airline civilian pilots are really incompetent and dangerous. 

That is a pretty broad brush that you are painting with.

[viper154]

52 minutes ago, BFM this said:

Correct me if I’m wrong (the mighty Tweet reigned in my time), but I believe you’ll get Commercial AMEL, ASEL, IA, counting the T6 time.

I really know a lot less than I should about FAA ratings, but I was a T-6/T-1 guy, I got a commercial, multi engine, instrument with a BE-400 type.  

[Hawg15]

1 hour ago, frog said:

That is a pretty broad brush that you are painting with.

Obviously not all of them are, but it took about 6 flights in a T-6 for the bar to be set higher than any civilian checkride I experienced. I was not prepared to calmly handle a real, complex emergency or SA draining scenario until UPT, and even then 38s is when it all clicked having an engine shit the bed. Knowing what I do now, the phrog pilot at my school was the only person I feel was a true professional aviator. There’s too many people that lack repetition and experience from their 1 Sunday flight a month or just trying to reach the magic number for a regional job. The airlines seem to see value in our training as well. 

But I digress from the original post. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Hawg15

[frog]

55 minutes ago, Hawg15 said:

Obviously not all of them are, but it took about 6 flights in a T-6 for the bar to be set higher than any civilian checkride I experienced. I was not prepared to calmly handle a real, complex emergency or SA draining scenario until UPT, and even then 38s is when it all clicked having an engine shit the bed. Knowing what I do now, the phrog pilot at my school was the only person I feel was a true professional aviator. There’s too many people that lack repetition and experience from their 1 Sunday flight a month or just trying to reach the magic number for a regional job. The airlines seem to see value in our training as well. 

But I digress from the original post. 

So you are basing your conclusion on the entirety of general aviation, commercial or otherwise, based on your experience at a single civilian school? Copy.

[FLEA]

You would be surprised how much people in the military don't know. When I left my 11R platform filing VFR was like a Pandora's box of mystery to them. They thought it was this way out there wierd thing that needed special preparation and planning. VFR. You know, what every GA pilot does until they get instrument qual'd. The military had it's strengths but each community has their weaknesses as well. At the end of the day the aviation sector is huge and people will specialize in their organizations niche. Hanging out at an FBO and talking to some old timers is a great way to realize how much you haven't seen, even with an Air Force background. 

[Metalhead731]

This is all very insightful information. Thank you all for your responses. 

[BFM this]

16 hours ago, viper154 said:

I really know a lot less than I should about FAA ratings, but I was a T-6/T-1 guy, I got a commercial, multi engine, instrument with a BE-400 type.  

Guess I should have GTS (google that shit) the first time.  

https://www.sheppardair.com/milcomp.htm

Yes, you should have also gotten your Comm ASEL.  Should be an easy fix.

[LookieRookie]

14 hours ago, FLEA said:

You would be surprised how much people in the military don't know. When I left my 11R platform filing VFR was like a Pandora's box of mystery to them. They thought it was this way out there wierd thing that needed special preparation and planning. VFR. You know, what every GA pilot does until they get instrument qual'd. The military had it's strengths but each community has their weaknesses as well. At the end of the day the aviation sector is huge and people will specialize in their organizations niche. Hanging out at an FBO and talking to some old timers is a great way to realize how much you haven't seen, even with an Air Force background. 

What you mean I don't have to make doghouses and a DR course on a sectional to fly VFR? /s

[FLEA]

Dude it was friggin crazy how risky some people thought it was to cancel IFR 50nm out from base and follow a highway back with a sectional map. It was the same route we flew from the MOA 100X and even other ACs couldn't identify landmarks to get back if we lost instrumentation. 

[Homestar]

5 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

What you mean I don't have to make doghouses and a DR course on a sectional to fly VFR? /s

If by that you mean turn on “own ship” on my Foreflight sectional then yeah. 😁

[SocialD]

18 hours ago, FLEA said:

Dude it was friggin crazy how risky some people thought it was to cancel IFR 50nm out from base and follow a highway back with a sectional map. It was the same route we flew from the MOA 100X and even other ACs couldn't identify landmarks to get back if we lost instrumentation. 

 

[AirGuardianC141747]

All piloting experiences when shared are invaluable to our learning process. While instruction varies depending on outfit (GA vs military as previously mentioned), basic skills are required to maintain rubber side down. 

Military has more than our share of accidents, but we did or do what others do not depending upon the platform. While flight is a perishable skill overall, military skills are extremely perishable; therefore, repetition is required for proficiency. We have always argued the difference between being proficient vs current as more and more currency items have been pushed to a simulator. Hand flying must stay in the game.

GA has the lead statistically in the accident arena based on number of accidents; commercial hits the radar due to the number of lives lost per hull loss despite the lowest number of accidents. Make what you want of it, but I have flown with some exceptional folks on both sides of the fence. I run across some great information from the original GA folks who hit the line with us in the big jet world. Some of the best from the GA world were those who started as Alaska Bush Pilots who became extremely proficient once they grasped the automation world. I will say I wouldn’t have made some of their decisions since I would have never dared to fly in their worst environment - pretty impressive stuff. It’s that niche stuff previously posted.

I am less bold and more old like that “bold vs old adage” for pilots, but those who rely on the magenta line vs dumbing things down when necessary concerns me. 

I must admit to doing a low pass near a water tower to read the town placard to gain my bearings, but that’s what we do or fall back on when you don’t recognize the 2 lane highway... probably wouldn’t hurt to carry binoculars now.

Overall, you can learn from anybody with right attitude, but while you trust you must verify unfortunately. In my case, I have tried to learn something new every flight (long haul carrying dog crap out of HKG/actually in HKG right now) as long as I am not learning too much which equates to not doing my job.

USAF Proclomation once stated: “Safety is paramount!” If safety was paramount we wouldn’t be flying was my thought. It’s what are you willing to risk, how to mitigate that risk in order to accomplish whatever the goal or endgame. Exposure is a risk!

Lucky is better than good, tried and true is better than guessing until your cornered.

BE-400, aaaah that Mitsubishi was a fun ride, but so was the Legendary Tweet.

[Majestik Møøse]

It’s always a solid bet to gamble on generalizations and averages based on a person’s background (within reason), but never discount the ability of a motivated individual to adapt and overcome until they prove otherwise. Or, on the other hand, to fuck something up royally that they should have known better about. Thats the American way.

[fire4effect]

I'll risk it and wade a little into this and say money as is often the case a big difference. Uncle Sugar has very deep pockets to fund its training compared to a civilian operation (whole up company or individual student) that has to watch the bottom line all the time. Also many instructors in the civilian world (whether they are good at teaching or not) are just barely past students themselves and just building hours to move up. Often their only realistic way of doing so.  Absolutely nothing to force them to come back and teach down the road after they get a few thousand hours and a lot of good real world lessons under their belt to pass it on. Fortunately a few do exactly that. Is what it is. Military as we've all know can simply order anyone under its purview who it thinks is a good fit to be an instructor to do so and I'm including FAIPs. As some have alluded to a willingness to set aside ego and learn can go along way no matter what realm you are coming from.

Edited April 27, 2019 by fire4effect