Airline hours?

[KPPV1]

How should we be logging our hours to meet airline requirements. Does anyone have any SA on this?

 

 

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[nunya]

Don't worry about it.  I kept personal logs because I'm OCD like that.  You can walk into any airline interview with your ARMS records and (maybe) a basic Excel conversion/assumptions sheet and be fine.

[JeremiahWeed]

A few things to keep in mind:

There isn’t one approved “airline logbook method”. This has nothing to do with FARs or mil regs, so throw those out of the equation. Some airlines have unique definitions of what they consider PIC time and others fall into a similar pattern (signing for the a/c is common).  Some allow a per sortie conversion (.2 or .3 per is typical), some don’t or they apply it themselves. .  I’ve also seen a 1.2 multiplication option for one’s entire total.  The bottom line is that it’s entirely possible that you could apply to 3 different airlines and have 3 different totals for your PIC time.  

So my recommendation is to avoid extra work and wasted time creating a civilian logbook that just going to need to be tweaked for every airline you come into contact with anyway.  Be familiar with your hours and which sorties or types of events may not meet a particular criterion that an airline uses to define PIC. Make sure your military flight time products are presentable and profession (I got a better looking binder that didn’t look like it had been used for 11 years). As nunya said, put an accurate, airline specific cover sheet inside that details how you arrived at the totals you provided to that airline using their rules.  Be conservative and realize that there are folks at each airline that understand how UPT and FTU syllabi are constructed. If you’re a fighter guy who claims 100% of his time is PIC and airline X says PIC = signing for the jet, they’re going to ask if you have any time in a two-seater with an IP on board.  Dual received, even if the IP never touched the controls isn’t going to compute when an airline wants sorties you signed for the jet (i.e. were ultimately responsible for the a/c).

[FLEA]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:59 AM, JeremiahWeed said:

A few things to keep in mind:

There isn’t one approved “airline logbook method”. This has nothing to do with FARs or mil regs, so throw those out of the equation. Some airlines have unique definitions of what they consider PIC time and others fall into a similar pattern (signing for the a/c is common).  Some allow a per sortie conversion (.2 or .3 per is typical), some don’t or they apply it themselves. .  I’ve also seen a 1.2 multiplication option for one’s entire total.  The bottom line is that it’s entirely possible that you could apply to 3 different airlines and have 3 different totals for your PIC time.  

So my recommendation is to avoid extra work and wasted time creating a civilian logbook that just going to need to be tweaked for every airline you come into contact with anyway.  Be familiar with your hours and which sorties or types of events may not meet a particular criterion that an airline uses to define PIC. Make sure your military flight time products are presentable and profession (I got a better looking binder that didn’t look like it had been used for 11 years). As nunya said, put an accurate, airline specific cover sheet inside that details how you arrived at the totals you provided to that airline using their rules.  Be conservative and realize that there are folks at each airline that understand how UPT and FTU syllabi are constructed. If you’re a fighter guy who claims 100% of his time is PIC and airline X says PIC = signing for the jet, they’re going to ask if you have any time in a two-seater with an IP on board.  Dual received, even if the IP never touched the controls isn’t going to compute when an airline wants sorties you signed for the jet (i.e. were ultimately responsible for the a/c).

Just curious, how much PIC time is competitive these days?

[Tank]

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Just curious, how much PIC time is competitive these days?

As long as you have your ATP with 1500 hours, you’re competitive.  

The airlines currently are able to keep up with the retirements but that will soon change and they all know it.  

United, for example, is continuously adding new classes and they currently are having classes with 30-40 new hires in them.  

Unless something drastic happens, all pilots will have job security.  

[FLEA]

Another question, do airlines generally discount other time. IE, they only care about time at controls? 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but other time (as a pilot crew member) is compiled in the total time so that counts. If your military they know your running an augmented crew and it’s a requirement for the 24hr duty day. We have 3, many times 4 pilots on board to ensure the trip is captured within duty limits so that’s nothing new to them. So they’re looking at jet/turboprop/turbofan total time and searching for that PIC time as key factors. A lot of outfits don’t require the 1000 hrs PIC now that things are getting dicey with retirements, but shoot for that 1000 hrs PIC time to better your chances despite the “1000 hrs PIC preferred.”

Edited April 27, 2019 by AirGuardianC141747

[SocialD]

I think most of them specifically tell you to NOT count other time.  

[AirGuardianC141747]

OK, go with that. Haven’t interviewed in awhile. Good info to know.

[Vixty]

This spells it out pretty well how to keep a logbook 

https://www.aviationbull.com/2015/oct/19/military-pilot-logbook-conversion

[KPPV1]

So if I'm a copilot, but I'm the pilot flying. Am I logging PIC hours then?


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[ARAMP1]

I handed them my single page ARMS summary...they looked at it for a total of 10 seconds max and never asked any questions about it.  

[FUSEPLUG]

16 minutes ago, KPPV1 said:

So if I'm a copilot, but I'm the pilot flying. Am I logging PIC hours then?
 

If you're not a qualified aircraft commander, then I'd say no. 

[Guest]

So if I'm a copilot, but I'm the pilot flying. Am I logging PIC hours then?


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No. Technically, for it to count as PIC, you need to carry the A code on the orders. In practice, most people claim a percentage of hours since AC cert (75-90% is typical).


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[jazzdude]

So if I'm a copilot, but I'm the pilot flying. Am I logging PIC hours then?


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Yes and no some the FAA has multiple definitions for PIC... Yes in the sense that you are the "sole manipulator of controls." No in the sense of "responsible for the overall safe conduct of the flight."

If airlines are the goal, then only A-Code time should be logged as PIC.

[MooseAg03]

No. Technically, for it to count as PIC, you need to carry the A code on the orders. In practice, most people claim a percentage of hours since AC cert (75-90% is typical).


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I hate myself for actually documenting time accurately in my logbook. If I used this rule it would more than double my “PIC” time. Very rarely do we ever get sent out with two co-pilots, and that means you only get the A code half the time.


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[Guest]

I hate myself for actually documenting time accurately in my logbook. If I used this rule it would more than double my “PIC” time. Very rarely do we ever get sent out with two co-pilots, and that means you only get the A code half the time.


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I’m tracking it accurately as well, and it worked out to about 73% of hours since cert. That’s probably high compared to most though because a lot of that has been deployed flying with copilots.


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[NKAWTG]

Related question.  How do you count evaluator time?  Unless the other pilots are unqualified or can't hold the A code,  then the EP typically is not listed as the A code.  

[Guest]

Related question.  How do you count evaluator time?  Unless the other pilots are unqualified or can't hold the A code,  then the EP typically is not listed as the A code.  

If you’re going strictly by the book, PIC=Primary, Secondary, instructor, or evaluator time while holding the A code. I’m guessing most people end up actually claiming a percentage of their primary and secondary since cert, and 100% of their IP and EP time as being PIC.


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[MooseClub]

On 4/27/2019 at 10:17 AM, SocialD said:

I think most of them specifically tell you to NOT count other time.  

^ this 

Civilian aviation does not recognize other time. 

[Goblin]

Related question.  How do you count evaluator time?  Unless the other pilots are unqualified or can't hold the A code,  then the EP typically is not listed as the A code.  

Most airlines don’t ask for EP/eval time, just a checkbox if you were an evaluator. I’ve heard folks using their EP time as IP time in the calculations


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[AirGuardianC141747]

Concur with ihtfp06 and Goblin. Just an insider view to logging EP time as IP time = PIC time. Example: EP lets aircrew being evaluated land without a clearance. (No GA initiated obviously) EP gets tanked and it’s far worse on the paper trail if recorded properly. It gets better as now your squadron has to send out another crew to recover the jet/mission, etc. Just a once upon a time story.

Basically, you need to be able to answer the mail if asked. Have a common sense approach and justification if anyone dives deep. 

[FLEA]

More questions: How do you count UPT time? SIM time? Does it depend on the class sim? 

Really great answers so far. Thanks for those of you in the know for contributing. 

[SocialD]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

More questions: How do you count UPT time? 

I logged UPT flights as total time and dual received or PIC (if solo). 

[MooseClub]

7 hours ago, FLEA said:

More questions: How do you count UPT time? SIM time? Does it depend on the class sim? 

Really great answers so far. Thanks for those of you in the know for contributing. 

UPT would be SIC (except the couple solo flights would be PIC). Simulator time doesn’t get included in your civilian totals, regardless of the type of sim used. For those purposes it’s no different than “other” time. Doesn’t count for anything.