Aerial Firefighting

[MechGov]

Mapping out post AF career options (already at 10 year point). Intent is to eek out an AD retirement and then punch at 20. Anyone have any experience applying for those types of jobs? Is it possible to work an airline career to pay the bills?

[FLEA]

Look under the careers other than airlines thread. There was some good info posted recently there. 

[kona4breakfast]

Do you want to be a SEAT pilot? Fly the heavies? Air attack is more of an entry level pilot gig. SEAT guys make good money once they're federally carded but are gone all season. Change is afoot in the industry though. You've got plenty of time. SEAT guys need Ag time though. Just go to a fire conference sometime and network. Carding requirements are public and set by OAS. You'll probably see companies post on JSFirm and the like as they are having a lot of trouble filling seats.

[skibum]

If you're getting out because of lifestyle then think twice about fire fighting. You live like a gypsy. You do not need ag spray experience for SEATs. Lots of guys go in from single seat fighters. One of the biggest outfits is run by a viper dude, and he hires a lot of AF & Navy. Lead plane is another options, but it's also the gypsy life and working for USFS which has laughable leadership (worse the AF -- imagine that).

[MechGov]

If you're getting out because of lifestyle then think twice about fire fighting. You live like a gypsy. You do not need ag spray experience for SEATs. Lots of guys go in from single seat fighters. One of the biggest outfits is run by a viper dude, and he hires a lot of AF & Navy. Lead plane is another options, but it's also the gypsy life and working for USFS which has laughable leadership (worse the AF -- imagine that).

Good point on lifestyle. To clarify, it’s post-20 yr plan.

Thanks for the gouge. I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that there are other federal agencies with leadership problems.

[Shaft34]

On 4/29/2019 at 9:09 PM, skibum said:

If you're getting out because of lifestyle then think twice about fire fighting. You live like a gypsy. You do not need ag spray experience for SEATs. Lots of guys go in from single seat fighters. One of the biggest outfits is run by a viper dude, and he hires a lot of AF & Navy. Lead plane is another options, but it's also the gypsy life and working for USFS which has laughable leadership (worse the AF -- imagine that).

I agree with your assessment of the lifestyle for a SEAT or Fed pilot, lots of time on the road.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Shaft34

[Shaft34]

On 4/29/2019 at 3:10 PM, MechGov said:

 

Mapping out post AF career options (already at 10 year point). Intent is to eek out an AD retirement and then punch at 20. Anyone have any experience applying for those types of jobs? Is it possible to work an airline career to pay the bills?

 

In general, I would get away from thinking of the industry as a part-time or retirement gig, and more of a career to pursue. Sure, there are certain jobs available that fit that role, but they generally don’t pay much and are inconsistent  year to year. If all you want is a little fun flying fire, then look to Air Attack jobs with any number of contractors in a 690 or King Air.

The more serious, better paying jobs generally demand more dedication and time. You basically have Fed jobs (USFS & BLM), Fed contractors (Air Attack, SEAT, & Large Tankers), and State jobs (CalFire, etc). These may be year round or seasonal, but also full-time work.

Its a small industry and I’ve found most opportunities are found through good old fashioned networking. That’s a tall order for a pilot coming off AD, believe me, I understand. Vets do have an advantage getting Fed jobs, so that is one way to get started. I flew a Fed Air Attack (contractor) for a few years before getting the chance to get on with CalFire (DynCorp). Met tons of people and got a good feel for the industry.

The real challenge is the transition from a good paying job, to a path that may or may not work out for you. Especially with all the opportunity in the airlines right now. There is no standard path in this industry, everyone just kind of finds their way somehow. Usually hard work and sacrifice. Having a mil retirement helps ease that transition.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Shaft34
spelling

[AirGuardianC141747]

Now that was some very spot on information. I would truly use these pros above like Shaft34 to further investigate this particular niche working group. Along with my civilian counterpart in D.C., (he was the master of the interweaving of USFS, BLM, CalFireSmoke jumpers, TACPs and MAFFS) we were constantly in Boise NIFC working support funding/reimbursement/Feds involvement and lines of authority during Defense Support of Civil Authorities (DSCA) to include value of reconnaissance assets both manned and unmanned. Granted the NNC oversight has added yet another layer of sensitivity but that has rare effect on the civilian side. Some really challenging/rewarding flying by those heroes. It’s definitely a niche mission with true mission accomplishment. Good luck on your future endeavor.

[MechGov]

Shaft/AirGuardian, thanks for the solid advice!

[HuggyU2]

I got to see Shaft's S-2 last year.  Frickin' gorgeous.  As clean as the day it left the factory.  

Here's a screen shot of Shaft doing shit that saves lives.  

[MechGov]

I got to see Shaft's S-2 last year.  Frickin' gorgeous.  As clean as the day it left the factory.  
Here's a screen shot of Shaft doing shit that saves lives.  

That’s glorious

[Shaft34]

AOPA did a real nice segment on CalFire Aviation this week. It’s part of the linked video. Some good in cockpit video.

https://aopalive.aopa.org/?utm_source=epilot&utm_medium=email

Huggy...you’ll recognize the pilot.

[Danger41]

Anybody here fly the MAFFS mission? I’m interested in that post AD but I’m not a 130 guy. Would that matter to those units?

[Scooter14]

Anybody here fly the MAFFS mission? I’m interested in that post AD but I’m not a 130 guy. Would that matter to those units?

I can’t speak for MAFFS specifically, but I can speak for the ANG when I say that if you are a rated pilot and a good dude that wants to join any ANG unit, no matter what your background, you have a very good chance these days.

[nunya]

17 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Anybody here fly the MAFFS mission? I’m interested in that post AD but I’m not a 130 guy. Would that matter to those units?

As long as you don't expect to go from Little Rock to a fire in 6-9 months, you can probably get there eventually.  After MAFFS 7, they tightened up the experience minimums.

Either way, MAFFS is a fraction of the mission so make sure you're joining wanting to do the Herk mission.  You'll do a lot more of that than fires, even once you have the experience for MAFFS.

[HuggyU2]

Congrats to Shaft!  He recently got his "card", and after many years of hard work is now a full-blown Initial Attack Tanker Captain.  

Well done, Sir!

[12xu2a3x3]

How much of a benefit would a TFR be given the operation environment of marginal VFR at low altitudes?

What has been the evolution of the "lead plane" concept? Does the tanker simply keep sight and then drop on command?

[Shaft34]

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking in reference to TFRs, but I’ll do my best to explain how we use them.

There are two methods used to deconflict traffic around a Wildland Fire incident, the FTA (Fire Traffic Area) and the TFR. Easiest way to understand is that the FTA is for participating aircraft (I.e. assigned), while the TFR is used to keep non-participating aircraft out of the way. Generally, the Initial Attack (IA) phase will not have a TFR, just a FTA. As an incident moves into the Extended Attack (EA) phase a TFR will likely be initiated. This depends greatly on the particular AO of the incident. A fire in SoCal will get a TFR faster than one in the middle of nowhere usually. The TFR shape will morph as Fire activity dictates. 

The FTA was designed after a mid-air collision involving two S-2s in NorCal in 2001. This establishes a 5 mile ring around the incident and requires clearance in from the aerial supervision platform (if there is one). First call at 12nm from incident coordinates to receive clearance prior to 7nm, otherwise you hold out. First aircraft on scene make blind calls and are responsible for establishing the FTA. The stack starts at 2500’ AGL and moves down depending on aircraft type. It’s very well thought out and works great when everyone does their part.

I’m not an expert on lead planes, but the main evolution I’ve seen in my seven seasons is the move towards making them all ASM (Aerial Supervision Module) platforms. Essentially, this is a Lead Plane with a specially trained ATGS (Air Tactical Group Supervisor, better known as Air Attack) sitting right seat to help with coordination. It’s been around a long time, but pretty much all of them are ASMs now. I believe it was the BLM that started that move, but I could be wrong. At CalFire, all our Lead Planes are ASMs and they use the OV-10. Most Fed leads use King Air 90s or 200s and the State of Alaska has a Commander 690 or two.

The leads will be on scene for a few hours and really help on large incidents to increase the efficiency of operations by showing the tankers where to drop without a complicated “talk-on” from the Air Attack. Plus the Air Attack can get real busy talking to rotors and the ground, so it essentially splits the work. The lead will sometimes do a “show me” run for the Tanker to watch, then go for a live run with the Tanker in tow. In the S-2 we generally fly 1/4 mile in trail for the drop. The lead will mark the start/stop of the drop with smoke and make any wind corrections as required. As a Tanker pilot I’ll watch the smoke and correct off any extra drift if it’s different than expected. 

Some tankers require a lead plane in order to drop (VLATs and MAFFS). In the S-2 we usually get a “show me” and then fly our own drop pattern, but it really depends on how things are flowing and trying to be the most efficient we can. It also depends greatly on the individual pilot and what they like. I’ll take a lead if I’m unsure of the target or I’m already in a good position and we can get it done quickly. Most of the LATs (Large Air Tankers) seems to prefer a lead when one is available. It’s standard practice to order a lead for any Federal incident. For state incidents, we almost never order a lead until it goes big. Our standard order is an Ov-10 Air Attack, two S-2s, and a Helitack crew. It’s fast, efficient, and we generally catch them early doing this depending on fire conditions.

Hope that answers your questions...

Edited March 10, 2020 by Shaft34

[herkbier]

Shaft, thanks for posting, I’ve been interested in CalFire since we had that other thread a while back.

Are you guys still 6 on, 1 off? I think I read there was some thought of changing that up?

It seems like fire season is getting longer each year.. is that changing operations any?

Can you post some more info on the pay? I know it’s not a $350k wide body airline job.. just looking for a planning factor?

And lastly.. what’s it like on family life? It seems pretty good, home most nights right? But I’m sure there’s more to it.

Thanks!

[12xu2a3x3]

@Shaft34 shit hot, i truly cannot thank you enough for your reply. i'm a dope was and thinking of a terrain following radar not a temporary flight restriction, completely forgetting for a second the latter is the everyday usage for that acronym, but i digress. great info.

[Shaft34]

2 hours ago, 12xu2a3x3 said:

@Shaft34 shit hot, i truly cannot thank you enough for your reply. i'm a dope was and thinking of a terrain following radar not a temporary flight restriction, completely forgetting for a second the latter is the everyday usage for that acronym, but i digress. great info.

Ok...now it makes a bit more sense. I have no direct experience with terrain following radar, so it’s hard to say. I do see tremendous value in a HUD of some sort that displays airspeed and AOA, which are pretty much all that I’m looking inside at on short final. A quality radar alt would be nice too!

There could also be room for a good Synthetic Vision display in my opinion. Spent some time flying a King Air with G1000 and really liked their system. Basically a backup in case you enter thick drift smoke in tight terrain, not as a primary system.

[Shaft34]

On 3/8/2020 at 7:10 AM, herkbier said:

Shaft, thanks for posting, I’ve been interested in CalFire since we had that other thread a while back.

Are you guys still 6 on, 1 off? I think I read there was some thought of changing that up?

It seems like fire season is getting longer each year.. is that changing operations any?

Can you post some more info on the pay? I know it’s not a $350k wide body airline job.. just looking for a planning factor?

And lastly.. what’s it like on family life? It seems pretty good, home most nights right? But I’m sure there’s more to it.

Thanks!

I could write a short book on this, but I’ll try to sum it up. Essentially, this job is for pilots who have a passion for the mission and type of flying we do. There is a long history of poor pay and working conditions in this industry, which have improved dramatically over the past 20 years, but will probably never reach the level of airline jobs. It’s not for everyone, but it is a great job if you love fighting fire!

The seasons are getting longer and our pilot group (CFPA) has been working hard to remedy the schedule and pay issues. We are slowly implementing a new schedule that includes more days off....the 10 on/5 off. All of the OV-10 positions have switched this season and about half the S-2 bases will be on it. The S-2s will switch as more Tanker pilots are carded and available to cover the new positions. We have some C-130s slated to come online starting next year (2021), so I’m not sure how that might impact the schedule improvement for S-2s the next few years. The C-130 captains will be previously qual’d S-2 pilots for the most part. 

Pilot pay is essentially a day rate, plus some other benefits (401k, Pension, and BenCredit). OV-10 Pilots should make around $150k plus and Tanker pilots at $225k plus. Pay varies a lot due to the number of days you work, from about 125 to 200+.

I think that hits on most of your questions...

Edited March 10, 2020 by Shaft34

[skibum]

On 3/7/2020 at 9:21 AM, 12xu2a3x3 said:

How much of a benefit would a TFR be given the operation environment of marginal VFR at low altitudes?

Having done TFR, I can say it would be almost zero benefit. I found TFR was more about power management or VERY low vis. While the vis can suck on fire drops, it's usually not like clouds or pitch black night. It's marginal, but if you can't see so bad you need TFR to get to the drop then you should call knock it off and live to fight another day. 99.99969% of fixed-wing fire drops are not related to protecting life. It's not life structure firefighting -- lots of trees, snake and lizards.

[Shaft34]

This picture was posted on the Fire Bombers group on facebook and I thought it really captures the essence of aerial firefighting in general, and what we focus on at CalFire in particular. Initial Attack to support the aggressive response by the ground firefighters, who do the real work and actually put out the fires. This photo was taken 40+ years ago and some things have changed, but the mission remains the same. Just thought I'd share it here...

[Shaft34]

The California Fire Pilots Association (CFPA) has created an updated website with much more information than previously available. Some of which is the path to a career in fire aviation. Here is a link to the careers page:

Careers | California Fire Pilots Association (calfirepilots.com)

Also, this season a couple of our pilots participated in an episode of the Pilot to Pilot podcast. There is a wealth of knowledge for anyone interested in the topic.

CalFire- Fighting Wild Fires by Air by Pilot to Pilot - Aviation Podcast (anchor.fm)

 

Here's a badass photo of my fellow Columbia Air Attack Base tanker pilot Ken, saving some structures near Clear Lake last summer...

Edited December 13, 2021 by Shaft34