60 Minutes Segment on 2014 B-1 Friendly Fire in Afghanistan

[brabus]

12 hours ago, pawnman said:

There's talk about mounting a Lightning Pod instead.

Not as good as sniper. Don’t do it.

For the incident, talk to some JTACs in the know...they do not put the B-1 crew as RC. That said, don’t even drop BOC without at least a quick assessment of friendly positions (map, etc.) If you hit the pickle button without 100% SA on all friendlies, you are taking a lot of risk and putting the deconfliction onus on one man. Sometimes that risk may be worth it, but many times it’s not, even in the midst of a nasty gun fight. A 30 sec QC may have saved several lives.  

[di1630]

The beauty of having a CAS flexible aircraft is that you have options. Not just with sensors and vis lookout but with different weapons.

I know I can put down a mark with a rocket, 20mm or 30mm if I have questions. And that’s after the myriad of other ways I can check friendly positions.

A B-1 costs as much per hour as 4 x F-16s or A-10’s so this decision wasn’t a “it’s good force economy”

For me this was a lot of contributing factor with the root cause being wrong asset, wrong time in the wrong role.

Plotting/tracking the friendlies is a basic CAS skill set. If you think this is the first time that dudes called in air strikes on their posit you are wrong. Happens more often than you know however good CAS pilots stepped in and broke the chain before pickling.


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[SocialD]

17 hours ago, pawnman said:

There's talk about mounting a Lightning Pod instead.

 

4 hours ago, brabus said:

Not as good as sniper. Don’t do it.  

What he said! 

Wait, actually yes please do switch...then send us your Snipers.

[BashiChuni]

Maybe too much 1206s and not enough vault studying eh pawnman? Lightning > sniper? 😉

[pawnman]

8 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Maybe too much 1206s and not enough vault studying eh pawnman? Lightning > sniper? 😉

I didn't make the decision.  Part of the logic is that Lightning had digital output, so it can be directly integrated into the new LCD screens.  Sniper is analog only, so we're running it on aftermarket laptops.

[brabus]

Sniper SE is digital HD and a much better product. Your OT bros have got to know about this. However, AATC is working on color Litening, which I’ve heard is pretty awesome (yes, some of you can go ahead and laugh...it’s a big deal for us poor CAF guys!)

[Lawman]

I’m truly amused every time I hear some sort of blame shifted to seeing/not seeing IR strobes and how apparently that is the big discriminator that makes or breaks good CAS tactics in the AF.

The premier attack helicopter on the planet cannot see and does not care about IR strobes. As they routinely execute CAS and CCA from altitude and standoff as was intended from ranges that require the gunner to build and develop SA without it maybe that’s not the crutch to be leaning on. Also they can’t do better than an 8 digit grid in slaving to a given grid/target. 

Yes, this incident was entirely a failure on the idea of CAS being and easily thrown together action. CAS is supposed to be integrated in detail. Detail is something completely lacking in our modern 24/7 bus schedule version of building an ATO to support the coin fight. I doubt the crew even had a CONOP of the mission they were supporting much less a scheme of maneuver. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Lawman

[SurelySerious]

10 minutes ago, Lawman said:

I’m truly amused every time I hear some sort of blame shifted to seeing/not seeing IR strobes and how apparently that is the big discriminator that makes or breaks good CAS tactics in the AF.

The premier attack helicopter on the planet cannot see and does not care about IR strobes. As they routinely execute CAS and CCA from altitude and standoff as was intended from ranges that require the gunner to build and develop SA without it maybe that’s not the crutch to be leaning on. Also they can’t do better than an 8 digit grid in slaving to a given grid/target. 

Yes, this incident was entirely a failure on the idea of CAS being and easily thrown together action. CAS is supposed to be integrated in detail. Detail is something completely lacking in our modern 24/7 bus schedule version of building an ATO to support the coin fight. I doubt the crew even had a CONOP of the mission they were supporting much less a scheme of maneuver. 

Yeah man, I get that, but your premier helicopter gunner KNOWS his system can’t see IR markers...whereas these dudes were sure the pax in view were not FF because they didn’t see markers. They were convinced it was a capability they did have. Sure, JTAC SA and SMM with the aircrew are RC, but I don’t give these dudes a pass on the TGP capes they didn’t know  

I am not arguing the rest of the post, I agree about the lack of actual detailed integration usually given to Coin-CAS. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by SurelySerious

[Lawman]

1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

Yeah man, I get that, but your premier helicopter gunner KNOWS his system can’t see IR markers...whereas these dudes were sure the pax in view were not FF because they didn’t see markers. They were convinced it was a capability they did have. Sure, JTAC SA and SMM with the aircrew are RC, but I don’t give these dudes a pass on the TGP capes they didn’t know  
I am not arguing the rest of the post, I agree about the lack of actual detailed integration usually given to Coin-CAS. 

 

If you don’t know your system capes it wouldn’t matter what you’re flying in the stack. That’s a weak argument to those out there saying “Bombers shouldn’t/can’t perform CAS” of which there are plenty typically in platforms with their own shitty record of fratricide. Neither is it unique to the CAS mission as it could just as easily be a C-130 refueled that cant figure out how to turn his F’ing lights off to refuel the HAF, or a drone that doesn’t know how to steady stare at a target and keeps walking the laser everywhere but where it should be. 

Plenty of people in Apache/Hawg/etc communities that don’t know or care to learn how to fight their MWS are putting ground personnel at risk every time they check in and hope it works out for them this time around. That’s neither unique to bombers nor something to ignore.

Know your shit and what it can/can’t do. Beyond that playing the “this is my party and you shouldn’t be here game” that many have been making this incident evidence of is just MWS chest thumping. 


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Edited May 30, 2019 by Lawman

[brabus]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

drone that doesn’t know how to steady stare at a target and keeps walking the laser everywhere but where it should be. 

Classic BR move.

[SurelySerious]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

 

If you don’t know your system capes it wouldn’t matter what you’re flying in the stack. That’s a weak argument to those out there saying “Bombers shouldn’t/can’t perform CAS” of which there are plenty typically in platforms with their own shitty record of fratricide. Neither is it unique to the CAS mission as it could just as easily be a C-130 refueled that cant figure out how to turn his F’ing lights off to refuel the HAF, or a drone that doesn’t know how to steady stare at a target and keeps walking the laser everywhere but where it should be. 

Plenty of people in Apache/Hawg/etc communities that don’t know or care to learn how to fight their MWS are putting ground personnel at risk every time they check in and hope it works out for them this time around. That’s neither unique to bombers nor something to ignore.

Know your shit and what it can/can’t do. Beyond that playing the “this is my party and you shouldn’t be here game” that many have been making this incident evidence of is just MWS chest thumping. 


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Don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not arguing about whose MWS is welcome to the party. I’m specifically talking about this crew in this incident.