13O Career Field

[SFG]

Any aviators here who have set their wings down, made the jump, and parted the curtains on the new 13O gig?  I’m well outside the window... I’m just curious to hear initial impressions, thoughts, and regrets if you have any.

Any rumors on which LAF category you might promote in?

[FourFans]

7 hours ago, Klepto said:

Any aviators here who have set their wings down, made the jump, and parted the curtains on the new 13O gig?  I’m well outside the window... I’m just curious to hear initial impressions, thoughts, and regrets if you have any.

Any rumors on which LAF category you might promote in?

Standby to standby.  The first FTU class is in progress and they’re about halfway through the pipeline.  I might be able to get a temp check from the class when they role through my corner of the 13O FTU.  

I’ve taught one hour with them so far, and they are a broad cross section of the AF.  Most seem intelligent and motivated...not voluntold...to be where they are.  

A1 Promotion roadshow will be a good place for promotion questions.

More to follow when I can pass it.

FF

[pawnman]

We've got a couple from the B-1 community that volunteered.  They were excited to be picked up for the program.  From the breakout, I would guess they'd promote in the same category as 11X, 12X and 13L.

[SFG]

12 hours ago, pawnman said:

We've got a couple from the B-1 community that volunteered.  They were excited to be picked up for the program.  From the breakout, I would guess they'd promote in the same category as 11X, 12X and 13L.

Thanks.  After I asked the question I saw a brief that said that their primary AFSC will become their secondary and 13O will become their primary... makes me think now that they may join a different category.  For their sake I hope it doesn't end up like AFPAK Hands.

[Chuck17]

20 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Standby to standby.

Concur. So far the program is designed to not only create a new AFSC and MDC2 experts, its designed so that in the future the vast majority of GOs and C2 leadership will be 13Os (at some point) via one of several on-ramp timelines... which doesn't pass the sniff check as yet.

This one still has some baking to do, and its going to take some strong advocacy to live in the future.

If you're willing to step out and try something new, break new ground, and don't really care about glass ceilings, this is an option. IMHO, its a particularly good option to get some smarts and training that would otherwise take over 5 years to get by a conservative estimate (Operational level of war education + ASG level planning education + Doctrine/C2 education) through a number of selective courses and assignments. 

But the bumpersticker is still attached - new is different, different is odd, odd is non-essential, non-essential gets cut when the belts tighten - and you can bet the belts are going to tighten.

Chuck.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Chuck17
spelling

[SFG]

56 minutes ago, Chuck17 said:

Concur. So far the program is designed to not only create a new AFSC and MDC2 experts, its designed so that in the future the vast majority of GOs and C2 leadership will be 13Os (at some point) via one of several on-ramp timelines... which doesn't pass the sniff check as yet.

This one still has some baking to do, and its going to take some strong advocacy to live in the future.

If you're willing to step out and try something new, break new ground, and don't really care about glass ceilings, this is an option. IMHO, its a particularly good option to get some smarts and training that would otherwise take over 5 years to get by a conservative estimate (Operational level of war education + ASG level planning education + Doctrine/C2 education) through a number of selective courses and assignments. 

But the bumpersticker is still attached - new is different, different is odd, odd is non-essential, non-essential gets cut when the belts tighten - and you can bet the belts are going to tighten.

Chuck.

Let me in at 16 YAS with the option to keep flying and I’m always down for something strange and different. Until then, let’s just see how this pans out.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Klepto

[FLEA]

7 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Concur. So far the program is designed to not only create a new AFSC and MDC2 experts, its designed so that in the future the vast majority of GOs and C2 leadership will be 13Os (at some point) via one of several on-ramp timelines... which doesn't pass the sniff check as yet.

This one still has some baking to do, and its going to take some strong advocacy to live in the future.

If you're willing to step out and try something new, break new ground, and don't really care about glass ceilings, this is an option. IMHO, its a particularly good option to get some smarts and training that would otherwise take over 5 years to get by a conservative estimate (Operational level of war education + ASG level planning education + Doctrine/C2 education) through a number of selective courses and assignments. 

But the bumpersticker is still attached - new is different, different is odd, odd is non-essential, non-essential gets cut when the belts tighten - and you can bet the belts are going to tighten.

Chuck.

When you say 5 years of education you mean the combined schoolhouses of the AOC and AFFOR staff level courses? Or is there more to it? 

[Chuck17]

9 hours ago, FLEA said:

When you say 5 years of education you mean the combined schoolhouses of the AOC and AFFOR staff level courses? Or is there more to it? 

I mean if you took the combined total courseware length of all the courses and experience that went into building the 13O curriculum alone, it would take you nearly five years to complete it the traditional way.

They’ve frankensteined the 13O curriculum together from AOC/C2, Joint planning, AFFOR staff, WIC, ASG (and more) courses, and are doing it at a breakneck pace that doesn’t remotely enable a basic understanding of the operational level of war, let alone “Multi-Domain C2.”

But the CSAF wanted something quick. (Fast, cheap, good. Pick two.) So this is what we got. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not totally scoffing it. I am simply saying you can’t mass produce experts at the operational level like you can from a traditional training pipeline. It takes years AND education to build the required level of understanding.

Chuck

[FLEA]

Ok tracking. What complicates this is every AFFOR and AOC tend to have ism's that make them incredibly different from the doctrine norm. The 505 CTS could benefit from a course module focused on where people are going and what makes that theaters problem sets unique.

[otsap]

Any updates from folks about this career field?  I've been seeing the PSDMs calling for applications to the crossflow board, but still can't tell anyone what the job looks like (TDY/deployment frequency, M-F or shift work, base locations, etc).

Thanks in advance for any knowledge or experience you can pass along.

[FLEA]

I don't know. I'm contemplating it if I don't get picked up for school but not sure if I missed the window. (However with AOC and AFFOR tickets punched I'm hoping they'd make an exception.) 

[sirjrod00]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:40 PM, otsap said:

Any updates from folks about this career field?  I've been seeing the PSDMs calling for applications to the crossflow board, but still can't tell anyone what the job looks like (TDY/deployment frequency, M-F or shift work, base locations, etc).

Thanks in advance for any knowledge or experience you can pass along.

Current 13O here. The job looks a lot like a staff position within the AOC and will vary depending on which AOC you’re out-placed too, which division you’re in, team you’re on, etc. The majority of folks will go to geographic AOCs following IQT at HRT, but the aperture is starting to open for other assignments (CCMDs, functional OCs, HAF, etc.). The demand signal is increasing for 13O expertise and the community is starting to make a name for itself. Are there hurdles/challenges to overcome still? Yes, but CSAF and other GOs recognize the value of the career field and expertise and the remaining hurdles are not insurmountable. 

[Eli]

So through the googles I saw MI and MO are states with the 13O. Anyone know of other guard or reserve units that have added this career field? I bet states with an AOC guard unit but could only confirm two.

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Eli said:

So through the googles I saw MI and MO are states with the 13O. Anyone know of other guard or reserve units that have added this career field? I bet states with an AOC guard unit but could only confirm two.

Hurlburt has AFRC personnel at the AOC.  I’m not sure if they’re 13O career field though.  The one person I know who is a Reservist there is a 11F.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by Tank

[FLEA]

8 hours ago, Tank said:

Hurlburt has AFRC personnel at the AOC.  I’m not sure if they’re 13O career field though.  The one person I know who is a Reservist there is a 11F.  

I'm also interested in guard/reserve 13O oppurtunities, if anyone has more info. 

 

 

[kaputt]

Just to pile on, anyone heard anymore on expanding Reserve or Guard opportunities in this AFSC? 

[DirkDiggler]

Thread revival (and also maybe termination).  A good buddy of mine was in the first 13O training class; he told me this weekend that the AF is terminating the the 13O career field and that he needs a job.  Anybody else hear the same?

[MCO]

4 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Thread revival (and also maybe termination).  A good buddy of mine was in the first 13O training class; he told me this weekend that the AF is terminating the the 13O career field and that he needs a job.  Anybody else hear the same?

I’ve heard this

[pawnman]

21 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Thread revival (and also maybe termination).  A good buddy of mine was in the first 13O training class; he told me this weekend that the AF is terminating the the 13O career field and that he needs a job.  Anybody else hear the same?

Will they not just send him back to his previous AFSC/MWS?

[DirkDiggler]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Will they not just send him back to his previous AFSC/MWS?

He's in a bit of a weird spot; he's a LtCol (so older) and his previous MWS is retiring in 20 months.   

[nsplayr]

Any insight into why the career field is getting nixed? Looks like Big Blue honey-potted dudes once again with lots of promises and then cut them all off at the knees 2.69 years later when the Command musical chairs being another round of their endless shuffle.

Solid advice I have received over the years: only leave Ops very cautiously and skeptically, save enough early so have FU Money before you think you’ll need it, and war game our your plans A-E with your family on a semi-regular basis and have a vague idea of acceptable plans F-Z just in case.

Edited January 12, 2022 by nsplayr

[DirkDiggler]

11 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Any insight into why the career field is getting nixed? Looks like Big Blue honey-potted dudes once again with lots of promises and then cut them all off at the knees 2.69 years later when the Command musical chairs being another round of their endless shuffle.

Solid advice I have received over the years: only leave Ops very cautiously and skeptically, save enough early so have FU Money before you think you’ll need it, and war game our your plans A-E with your family on a semi-regular basis and have a vague idea of acceptable plans F-Z just in case.

No idea honestly.  I'll probably have better insight once I get the download from my friend but that won't be for another couple weeks.  It seems unfortunate; as an outsider looking in I thought this was a good concept and had potential to be productive.  

[Chuck17]

11 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Any insight into why the career field is getting nixed? Looks like Big Blue honey-potted dudes once again with lots of promises and then cut them all off at the knees 2.69 years later when the Command musical chairs being another round of their endless shuffle.

Solid advice I have received over the years: only leave Ops very cautiously and skeptically, save enough early so have FU Money before you think you’ll need it, and war game our your plans A-E with your family on a semi-regular basis and have a vague idea of acceptable plans F-Z just in case.

Because it’s the AFSC equivalent of a football bat. It doesn’t fit well anywhere. AOCs are getting these guys and not knowing what to do with them because they’re different. So they get used in unintended ways and not as designed.

Having watched this thing get frankensteined together 3-4 years ago, this isn’t much of shock. This was Goldfein’s baby, and what the CSAF wants, they get. The A3 was skeptical then and he’s the MAJCOM/CC in charge of the program now, so it’s not a huge shock that it got the “go quietly into the night” axe. See previous post.

On 7/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, Chuck17 said:

… doesn't pass the sniff check as yet.…

…But the bumpersticker is still attached - new is different, different is odd, odd is non-essential, non-essential gets cut when the belts tighten - and you can bet the belts are going to tighten.

Chuck.

Chuck

Edited January 12, 2022 by Chuck17

[M2]

Odd, as in less than two months ago, the AFSC was still being touted as the gold(fein) child (pardon the horrible pun)...

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2848978/multi-domain-warfare-officer-students-dive-deep-into-cyber-global-operations/

Does that mean 13O class 22A--scheduled to start 4 Jan 2022--was canx'd?

Nothing about it on the 13O Intelshare page (CAC required)...but there is nothing listed for 22A either!

https://intelshare.intelink.gov/sites/C2/13O/SitePages/Home.aspx

Nor is there anything on the 13O MilSuite site (again, CAC enabled)...

https://www.milsuite.mil/book/groups/13O

Anyone here at 16AF?

[dream big]

2 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Because it’s the AFSC equivalent of a football bat. It doesn’t fit well anywhere. AOCs are getting these guys and not knowing what to do with them because they’re different. So they get used in unintended ways and not as designed.

Having watched this thing get frankensteined together 3-4 years ago, this isn’t much of shock. This was Goldfein’s baby, and what the CSAF wants, they get. The A3 was skeptical then and he’s the MAJCOM/CC in charge of the program now, so it’s not a huge shock that it got the “go quietly into the night” axe. See previous post.

Chuck

Idk man I’ve seen it’s value in a certain commandant command. For one, as long as they are prior 11s/12s, they were value added in the AOC when I needed something down range.  They were filling spots that 11s/12s would have to fill anyways.  They were essentially ALOs/AMLOs but at the COCOM level.  They could easily speak to Army/Marine (our primary users) numbnuts on the staff on our behalf so I didn’t have to explain things like tac duty day and crew rest a million times. (No offense to our Marine/Army bros here - just different cultures when you are working with ground dudes). 

Is it highly likely that whoever was their program manager botched the rollout leaving many of them making corn on the AOC floor? Wouldn’t surprise me.