Degradation of SUPT

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, Springer said:

Ayz33, don't sell short Homstar's remarks about chair flying.  I locked myself in a room and chair flew each and every flight for hours while classmates were out playing water volleyball.

Some are always looking for a way to shortcut the process. It takes far more effort, discipline, focus, and time to put yourself through the visual learning process inside your mind than it does to rely on the visuals generated by a piece of technology in front of your face.

 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, torqued said:

Some are always looking for a way to shortcut the process. It takes far more effort, discipline, focus, and time to put yourself through the visual learning process inside your mind than it does to rely on the visuals generated by a piece of technology in front of your face.

 

That's why I refuse to use EFBs and only carry paper TOs everywhere.  Kids today are so spoiled...🙄

[SurelySerious]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

That's why I refuse to use EFBs and only carry paper TOs everywhere.  Kids today are so spoiled...🙄

Your joke doesn’t work unless you memorized all the pages of your TO before you had an EFB bro. If your EFB is reading your pubs for you, maybe your “forward thinking” is in the ball park. 

 

Reduced size and weight, and the ability to search are great, but otherwise... it’s on you to read it. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by SurelySerious

[gearhog]

5 hours ago, pawnman said:

That's why I refuse to use EFBs and only carry paper TOs everywhere.  Kids today are so spoiled...🙄

LOL. I knew that would get a response.

The less inflammatory thought I opted not to post was that the cognitive processes required to visualize whatever you're trying to study yield better overall results than if the visuals are instead simulated for you, in front of you.

I think the VR stuff is a great addition to training, but it seems a few might believe it is meant as a substitute, a la downloading Kung Fu directly to your brain via the matrix. Maybe entire training programs should not be built around it, but who cares, technology is neat-O.

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by torqued

[dream big]

On 9/5/2019 at 8:20 PM, Chida said:

But but I was PTWOB! or I was a SOAR IP! therefore due to my superior cadet status I should skip UPT!!


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Said no one ever

[FltDoc]

On 9/4/2019 at 9:47 AM, MCO said:

Your score on whatever the hand eye coordination test thing was, and previous hours in an airplane. Abilities as a student? Mostly irrelevant. It shows a drive to succeed. Lots of “bad” cadets are great in UPT, and lots of “good” cadets are terrible.

Does quality of cadet exactly correlate with success in UPT? No,  of course not.

As others have said, drive, discipline, and willingness to learn tends to lead to success and it's unusual to completely lack it as a cadet and discover it as a student pilot.

As a prior UPT primary phase IP, I'd say that's the way to bet.

Even overall...now, about twenty years after commissioning, my class and the few around mine, about 30-45 people total, if you ranked them as cadets and then saw how their careers went,  there's few big surprises.

Far from scientific, but that's what I see looking back.

[Lord Ratner]

Some are always looking for a way to shortcut the process. It takes far more effort, discipline, focus, and time to put yourself through the visual learning process inside your mind than it does to rely on the visuals generated by a piece of technology in front of your face.
 

While it may take more mental effort (though even that claim is questionable), there's no way it's more beneficial.

I'd bet right now that if I gave one guy ### hours of sim time and one guy the same number of hours chair flying, you'd be safe betting on the Sim.

Chair flying is still good, but if you happen to own a simulator, do that.

[MCO]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:43 PM, FltDoc said:

Does quality of cadet exactly correlate with success in UPT? No,  of course not.

As others have said, drive, discipline, and willingness to learn tends to lead to success and it's unusual to completely lack it as a cadet and discover it as a student pilot.

As a prior UPT primary phase IP, I'd say that's the way to bet.

Even overall...now, about twenty years after commissioning, my class and the few around mine, about 30-45 people total, if you ranked them as cadets and then saw how their careers went,  there's few big surprises.

Far from scientific, but that's what I see looking back.

Career wise? Don’t disagree. Good cadets tended to have decent careers. More of a correlation. Abilities as a pilot? I saw almost 0 correlation between cadet ranking in my fellow ROTC cadets (my school had about 150 in my junior/senior years) and how they did in pilot training. PCSM seemed to be one of the few things that did correlate. Obviously this is just my point of view and there are always exceptions, but it was a fairly sizable group.

Edited September 8, 2019 by MCO

[EvilEagle]

I'm sending kids to UPT as fast as I can inprocess them.  I have 5 in the pipeline right now and 3 waiting to go with another hiring board in a few months.  I try to email their flt/cc's as they go through the pipeline to hear how they are doing.  It's rare that they don't hit a snag somewhere.  About 6-9 months ago I was talking to a T-6 sq/cc, he told me that it's near impossible to wash people out - especially after they solo.  (I think that's always been a milestone)  One thing that came out of our conversation was that if kids are making MIF early in a block, they are advancing them through the block (i.e. not getting all the flying time we got as students).  

 

For the UPT IPs here - are you seeing this often?  

 

One of my guys nearly washed out of IFF for UPT-style stuff.  Basic SA, pattern references, etc.  All stuff that should've (IMO) been caught in UPT.  When I talked to the IFF SQ/CC he said (after gradebook review) the student in question had been prof-adv'd through several of the contact blocks in SUPT because he'd been doing well.  This came back to bite him later and almost cost him the fighter slot.  Would those sorties have made a difference?  I don't know for sure - I doubt they would've hurt him though.  I'm a way down the line customer in the process but IF this is commonplace it seems like it's going to hurt more than help.  

 

Anyone else get stories like this?  Was this a one-off?  

[zachbar]

5 minutes ago, EvilEagle said:

I'm sending kids to UPT as fast as I can inprocess them.  I have 5 in the pipeline right now and 3 waiting to go with another hiring board in a few months.  I try to email their flt/cc's as they go through the pipeline to hear how they are doing.  It's rare that they don't hit a snag somewhere.  About 6-9 months ago I was talking to a T-6 sq/cc, he told me that it's near impossible to wash people out - especially after they solo.  (I think that's always been a milestone)  One thing that came out of our conversation was that if kids are making MIF early in a block, they are advancing them through the block (i.e. not getting all the flying time we got as students).  

 

For the UPT IPs here - are you seeing this often?  

 

One of my guys nearly washed out of IFF for UPT-style stuff.  Basic SA, pattern references, etc.  All stuff that should've (IMO) been caught in UPT.  When I talked to the IFF SQ/CC he said (after gradebook review) the student in question had been prof-adv'd through several of the contact blocks in SUPT because he'd been doing well.  This came back to bite him later and almost cost him the fighter slot.  Would those sorties have made a difference?  I don't know for sure - I doubt they would've hurt him though.  I'm a way down the line customer in the process but IF this is commonplace it seems like it's going to hurt more than help.  

 

Anyone else get stories like this?  Was this a one-off?  

It’s mostly in the hands of flight commanders, but PAing is not frowned upon. I personally avoid it since the syllabus is shortened enough, and I might have to fly with these yahoos in the right seat when I make it out of AETC. The one student I PA’d was through his last two rides of Advanced Nav. He was an airline guy and asked to fly an RMI only on one nav ride to “challenge himself more.” 

[ayz33]

On 9/7/2019 at 11:43 AM, FltDoc said:

As others have said, drive, discipline, and willingness to learn tends to lead to success and it's unusual to completely lack it as a cadet and discover it as a student pilot.

This is the main point I was driving at. Those are the things I don't see in some of the dudes in my class that I've been around for 3 years now. I joined the program after a few years with stripes and some industry experience and that's what I see from others. Not claiming to know what makes somebody a good pilot because I haven't been there yet, but there are some obvious factors and traits people have to have as others have eluded to in this thread. I just expect that they're capable of changing for the better like a few others in here who weren't so hot out of the gate.

 

Also, if you're talking PCSM scores too..some with scores in the 20's or less getting slots

[BashiChuni]

59 minutes ago, ayz33 said:

This is the main point I was driving at. Those are the things I don't see in some of the dudes in my class that I've been around for 3 years now. I joined the program after a few years with stripes and some industry experience

I’ve seen guys like you come thru UPT. Usually they have problems. Chip on shoulder, holier than thou, “real world experience”. 

Good luck kid. 

Youre in ROTC so focus on graduating. And I’m sure you’ll type some snarky reply back that you’d never dare to say to my face in a UPT flight room. That’s fine. Get it out while you can young man. 

[LookieRookie]

3 hours ago, EvilEagle said:

I'm sending kids to UPT as fast as I can inprocess them.  I have 5 in the pipeline right now and 3 waiting to go with another hiring board in a few months.  I try to email their flt/cc's as they go through the pipeline to hear how they are doing.  It's rare that they don't hit a snag somewhere.  About 6-9 months ago I was talking to a T-6 sq/cc, he told me that it's near impossible to wash people out - especially after they solo.  (I think that's always been a milestone)  One thing that came out of our conversation was that if kids are making MIF early in a block, they are advancing them through the block (i.e. not getting all the flying time we got as students).  

 

For the UPT IPs here - are you seeing this often?  

 

One of my guys nearly washed out of IFF for UPT-style stuff.  Basic SA, pattern references, etc.  All stuff that should've (IMO) been caught in UPT.  When I talked to the IFF SQ/CC he said (after gradebook review) the student in question had been prof-adv'd through several of the contact blocks in SUPT because he'd been doing well.  This came back to bite him later and almost cost him the fighter slot.  Would those sorties have made a difference?  I don't know for sure - I doubt they would've hurt him though.  I'm a way down the line customer in the process but IF this is commonplace it seems like it's going to hurt more than help.  

 

Anyone else get stories like this?  Was this a one-off?  

I don't PA my students in T-38s, I know T-6s waive/PA post T-38 track select formation sorties all the time. Even then, we still get the studs late.

[Bender]

One thing that came out of our conversation was that if kids are making MIF early in a block, they are advancing them through the block (i.e. not getting all the flying time we got as students).  

Excessive use of PA is the opposite of the general problem with current UPT. While I don’t discount your example (I love to check out that grade book), the syllabus revisions were design to single handedly solve pilot manning over the course of the next 5 years...its implementation is costing way too many rides to believe it will do anything better than maintain the status quo.

If anyone believes that 5 more T-6 sorties are going to remove SA issues in the RTU or Ops Squadron...I just can’t quite understand where you’re coming from.

One of the big issues with UPT is we keep changing things and have made ZERO effort to analyze what the impacts of those changes have been. We celebrate those that promote change, promote them, send them to school, and then start working to change things again...without a sliver of desire to track anything or quantify anything.

PA’ing a lot of a “contact” block sounds like a relatively old example...it’s combined contact/instruments now called “transition”. Just old terminology perhaps...

That work is hopefully something that can be done soon...would certainly be interesting to quantify the cluster that has been the evolution of UPT over the last 10 years...literally 30+ versions syllabi without a single check.

~Bendy

[ayz33]

2 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

I’ve seen guys like you come thru UPT. Usually they have problems. Chip on shoulder, holier than thou, “real world experience”. 

Good luck kid. 

Youre in ROTC so focus on graduating. And I’m sure you’ll type some snarky reply back that you’d never dare to say to my face in a UPT flight room. That’s fine. Get it out while you can young man. 

Not sure why you're so riled up about this. I'm just saying I'm not just a kid who just came out of high school.

 

See you at Sheppard

Edited September 9, 2019 by ayz33

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, ayz33 said:

Not sure why you're so riled up about this. I'm just saying I'm not just a kid who just came out of high school.

Except you pretty much are, and you haven’t learned lesson #1 yet: never pass up the opportunity to STFU. 

You haven’t gotten to lost LT status yet. 

[MCO]

5 hours ago, ayz33 said:

Not sure why you're so riled up about this. I'm just saying I'm not just a kid who just came out of high school.

 

See you at Sheppard

You’ve already figured out how to be good at pilot training as a cadet. The Air Force could really value your insight. Please help your instructors with their rack and stack when you get to Sheppard.

Edited September 9, 2019 by MCO

[GuardLife07]

11 hours ago, ayz33 said:

This is the main point I was driving at. Those are the things I don't see in some of the dudes in my class that I've been around for 3 years now. I joined the program after a few years with stripes and some industry experience and that's what I see from others. Not claiming to know what makes somebody a good pilot because I haven't been there yet, but there are some obvious factors and traits people have to have as others have eluded to in this thread. I just expect that they're capable of changing for the better like a few others in here who weren't so hot out of the gate.

 

Also, if you're talking PCSM scores too..some with scores in the 20's or less getting slots

I had a sub 20 PCSM and was DG. All 3 of those in my class who washed out had decent PCSM scores. 

[Pooter]

I don't see syllabus PA's as a big issue or something that's really happening all that often.  Sure you can have a guy who washes out of IFF for something airmanship related, and it's easy to point at a training anomaly a year earlier.  But that doesn't mean they are related necessarily.    

Having said that, when you look at the gradual erosion of the syllabus over 10 years combined with PA's you could easily understand how a general decrease in airmanship is happening.  Just speaking anecdotally, when I went through UPT I had 17 solos.  5 in the T-6 and 12 in the 38.  Nowadays students get half that.  On top of that, there has been a reduction in total flight hours of ~20% in the last 5 years with no added sim time. 

 

This is happening because any single syllabus event can be argued out of existence by the good idea fairy.  

 

It starts at a syllabus "conference" when someone says: "students don't learn anything new from that second T-6 MOA solo anyway.  We'd make a few days up on timeline if we just get rid of it." And before you know it you've lost half of all student solos, ELPs, fix-to-fixes, T-38 form-solo O&B, wing work up to 90 degrees, over the tops in ET, perch setups, VFR nav leg on XC, formation sim, advanced contact and formation for all T-1 bound students, and the motherf-ing chandelle. 

Okay maybe the form sim was useless, but you get my point.  

Edited September 9, 2019 by Pooter

[Hacker]

13 hours ago, Bender said:

One of the big issues with UPT is we keep changing things and have made ZERO effort to analyze what the impacts of those changes have been. We celebrate those that promote change, promote them, send them to school, and then start working to change things again...without a sliver of desire to track anything or quantify anything.

 

 

"We care how things look, not how things are" is far from a UPT-centric problem. 

That is a core AF competency, unfortunately, that is going to take a generation to un-screw.

[ROCK 10]

"It starts at a syllabus "conference" when someone says: "students don't learn anything new from that second T-6 MOA solo anyway."

^^^Wait, What??^^^

Damn!!, two of the best days in UPT for me were solo MOA double-turns on a Friday - once in the -37, and later in the -38.  While at the desk dropping off my 'solo chit' at 11am for the 2nd -38 sortie, I distinctly remember the OPS-O saying "Hey, even I can't do that!" - then said, "Fly Safe, have fun!" 

Point is, me thinks that self reliance/confidence in the jet is learned in small increments - perhaps by flying solo!  Flying time back in early '97 was 87 Tweets/105-ish Talons.  192 total, just sayin'.

 

[Pooter]

11 minutes ago, ROCK 10 said:

Damn!!, two of the best days in UPT for me were solo MOA double-turns on a Friday - once in the -37, and later in the -38.  While at the desk dropping off my 'solo chit' at 11am for the 2nd -38 sortie, I distinctly remember the OPS-O saying "Hey, even I can't do that!" - then said, "Fly Safe, have fun!" 

Point is, me thinks that self reliance/confidence in the jet is learned in small increments - perhaps by flying solo!  Flying time back in early '97 was 87 Tweets/105-ish Talons.  192 total, just sayin'.

 

I'm completely with you.  I think the confidence gained doing numerous UPT solos is something huge you take with you into your career, especially if you go into the single seat world.  As for UPT flying time, mine was 188 in 2014.  Crazy that it was basically unchanged from yours in 1997 and we've cut 20% in the last 5 years.  

It's a slippery slope gents.. keep an eye on your new copilots and wingmen.

[Bender]

The current syllabus T-38 track has 90 T-6 hours (3 of which are solo). You guys think we should take more of the sorties and just send them solo? Sounds like an easy fix if it in fact bolstered SA later on!

 

Shite, they can do 90% of the syllabus solo if it helps! Wouldn’t get any complaints from me!

 

~Bendy

 

 

[Hawg15]

1 hour ago, ROCK 10 said:

"It starts at a syllabus "conference" when someone says: "students don't learn anything new from that second T-6 MOA solo anyway."

^^^Wait, What??^^^

Damn!!, two of the best days in UPT for me were solo MOA double-turns on a Friday - once in the -37, and later in the -38.  While at the desk dropping off my 'solo chit' at 11am for the 2nd -38 sortie, I distinctly remember the OPS-O saying "Hey, even I can't do that!" - then said, "Fly Safe, have fun!" 

Point is, me thinks that self reliance/confidence in the jet is learned in small increments - perhaps by flying solo!  Flying time back in early '97 was 87 Tweets/105-ish Talons.  192 total, just sayin'.

 

I’ve noticed that to be a big issue with UPT graduates. They lack confidence in their own abilities because they are rarely solo. As well as UPT teaches them to fly a syllabus, not be a pilot. They keep doing the same things that don’t work for them instead of what does because “that’s how the 3-3 says to do it.” The minute anything changes some guys will freeze up and short circuit. VFR is non existent in UPT and confuses those who only know AF flying. 

Ive heard IFF guys talk about how students can’t even fly the pattern. Well, the first time a student is flying the overhead pattern, or landing in general, at a different airport shouldn’t be IFF. I think students should always be in the front seat during instruments and XC and be required to do VFR patterns and visuals at foreign airports. T-1s do much better in that side of the house than 38s. 

We need to work more to make pilots once they have the basic aviating down. Hell, all of our student sorties are solo in the A-10 and they only get 2 EP sims before they fly. After ~20 hours of foundational instruction solos could easily be integrated more often into the UPT syllabus. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Hawg15

[BashiChuni]

15 hours ago, ayz33 said:

I'm just saying I'm not just a kid who just came out of high school.

 

See you at Sheppard

I’m just saying that no one gives a fuck you’re not right out of high school. 

Get over yourself and stfu snap

BREAK BREAK

agree w top two posters. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by BashiChuni