Degradation of SUPT

[Danger41]

What types of deployments would that be? Quick Devils Advocate, but why should UPT bros be exempt from deployments? It’s another entire MAJCOM full of people to help share the burden. I know UPT production is super important, but isn’t doing/enabling combat missions the #1 thing in the AF? I suspect those deployments are probably to al Udeid to make coffee and update slides for 6 months though...

Standing by for spears.

[brabus]

Valid devils advocate, but as you pointed out, I bet near 0% will do anything of actual necessity or value to any war. So, I hope none of those guys get tagged. 

[WheelsOff]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

What types of deployments would that be? Quick Devils Advocate, but why should UPT bros be exempt from deployments? It’s another entire MAJCOM full of people to help share the burden. I know UPT production is super important, but isn’t doing/enabling combat missions the #1 thing in the AF? I suspect those deployments are probably to al Udeid to make coffee and update slides for 6 months though...

Standing by for spears.

Valid point, but ya, since UPT IPs aren’t current in their MWS and actually flying on these deployments, it 100% will be some useless BS deployment to do absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute in any meaningful capacity. 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, WheelsOff said:

Valid point, but ya, since UPT IPs aren’t current in their MWS and actually flying on these deployments, it 100% will be some useless BS deployment to do absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute in any meaningful capacity. 

And that changes the calculus how?  Most guys current in their MWS are still tasked for useless BS non-flying deployments.

[SFG]

46 minutes ago, pawnman said:

And that changes the calculus how?  Most guys current in their MWS are still tasked for useless BS non-flying deployments.

It just closes a door on folks who thought there was a corner of the AF where they could avoid those. For better or worse.

[Hawg15]

6 hours ago, pawnman said:

And that changes the calculus how?  Most guys current in their MWS are still tasked for useless BS non-flying deployments.

In ops your job is to deploy and directly support the down range mission. It’s what we’re paid and train to do. In AETC your job is to train the personnel required to fill those ops positions. You can’t steal from your production ability to artificially inflate numbers on an excel spreadsheet without totally fing it a few years down the road. 

UPT is supposed to be significantly undermanned, being forced to increase production without increasing manning, and now told they’re  supposed to lose more instructors to deployments? What a completely moronic decision. A group os 2LTs could plan the future of the Air Force better than these GOs.

I suppose we could just replace them with a few more CBTs and syllabi changes. Oh and VR goggles. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Hawg15

[ViperStud]

UPT is undermanned. CAF is undermanned, at least with experience. I hear ROK Viper squadrons have mostly wingmen; IPs and FLs fly daily. FTUs are undermanned, people are bailing and we’re making IPs out of people we shouldn’t - small note, the 500hr requirement to enter the Viper IPUG just got changed to 400hrs in the new Vol1. Turns out we don’t have an “experience” problem if we simply redefine what it is to be experienced.  

I’m 100% in concurrence that we need to nuke any and all PowerPoint/coffee-ranger taskings. I worked a pounder gig and did all the paperwork to turn it into a non-rated position with my CC’s approval - only for him to get cold feet at the end, IMHO because he was staring down a CDI and didn’t want to rock the boat. I was frustrated beyond belief. 

That being said, deploying is what we do as military peeps. Every person on a BS profile, protected for IDE/SDE/exec, golden boy or in an AETC safe space essentially ups the OPSTEMPO for the bros not in such a position. Think about that for a sec. 

Your “little corner” of the AF that’s protected from deployments? GMAFB, we’ve all had our instances of the best laid plans getting turned upside down. It’s the nature of AD - we deploy.  Want real protection/stability? Punch and join the AFRES or ANG.

Edited October 3, 2019 by ViperStud

[LookieRookie]

All these UPT IPs will be great at teaching C-172 and C-208s in Afghanistan again.

[WheelsOff]

11 hours ago, pawnman said:

And that changes the calculus how?  Most guys current in their MWS are still tasked for useless BS non-flying deployments.

It doesn’t change the calculus.

The calculus, for reference: all non-flying deployments filled by rated personnel that could be filled by a non-rated person is a BS deployment.

[Merle Dixon]

I’m deployed right now. Layover in Munich. 😂

I hope all of you escape. AA and UAL each hiring 1,000 between now and the end of 2020. DAL claims they are gonna hire 1,200 between now and the end of 2020. FedEx, SWA, Alaska, who knows? 🍺🍺🍺

[dream big]

12 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

All these UPT IPs will be great at teaching C-172 and C-208s in Afghanistan again.

Wrong, they’ll be execs and coffee getters for the 7th AF/CFACC 

[dannoc]

Old timer FAIP questions.

I was a FAIP in the mid to late 70's before I got into TAC (F-4s) so know little of the dual track training process at UPT.  I'm getting some questions from a grandkid about aircraft assignments as he's thinking maybe he wants to be a USAF pilot.  

The main question I need to answer is the scenario where a stud gets fighter/bomber qualified and goes on to the T-38.  Does he already know what fighter/bomber/tanker he will fly when he gets selected for T-38s or is it just a block of those aircraft and he picks the aircraft later depending on his class standing.  Thanks for any help.

[Boomer6]

The short answer is no. He will fill out a dream sheet towards the end of his T-38 time for basically every aircraft in the AF (-38 guys are “universally” assignable) and then his flt/cc will decide what he is going to go fly based on what aircraft are in his drop, his class rank, and what he wants to go fly.

[Bender]

Old timer FAIP questions.

I was a FAIP in the mid to late 70's before I got into TAC (F-4s) so know little of the dual track training process at UPT.  I'm getting some questions from a grandkid about aircraft assignments as he's thinking maybe he wants to be a USAF pilot.  

The main question I need to answer is the scenario where a stud gets fighter/bomber qualified and goes on to the T-38.  Does he already know what fighter/bomber/tanker he will fly when he gets selected for T-38s or is it just a block of those aircraft and he picks the aircraft later depending on his class standing.  Thanks for any help.

 

He won’t know his specific aircraft until the end of T-38s...what we call “assignment night”. It’s likely to be a fighter, possibly a bomber, sometimes even something else when the Air Force in its infinite stupidity thinks it makes sense to send them to a MAF heavy.

 

They also don’t pick their aircraft, they request/provide their preference which is considered based on the aircraft provided for that class to be assigned too (of course, also based on the class standing).

 

Tell him good luck, it’s a pretty awesome career path,

~Bendy

[dannoc]

2 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

The short answer is no. He will fill out a dream sheet towards the end of his T-38 time for basically every aircraft in the AF (-38 guys are “universally” assignable) and then his flt/cc will decide what he is going to go fly based on what aircraft are in his drop, his class rank, and what he wants to go fly.

Thanks for that answer.  So if I understand your reply, even a guy who goes T-38s could be assigned a C-17?  Didn't know about the 'universelly' catch all.

[LookieRookie]

18 minutes ago, dannoc said:

Thanks for that answer.  So if I understand your reply, even a guy who goes T-38s could be assigned a C-17?  Didn't know about the 'universelly' catch all.

Yes that’s possible, although unlikely. A T-38 stud is most likely to get fighters, FAIP, then bombers, and finally a CAF heavy ISR asset.

[Duck]

Yep. I am one of those guys. Flew 38s and got caught up in some of the worst drops since the bank happened. Some of my buddies never flew a manned USAF aircraft after pilot training. Still an awesome career path but don’t have high expectations and you won’t be disappointed.


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[Merle Dixon]

7 hours ago, dannoc said:

Old timer FAIP questions.

I was a FAIP in the mid to late 70's before I got into TAC (F-4s) so know little of the dual track training process at UPT.  I'm getting some questions from a grandkid about aircraft assignments as he's thinking maybe he wants to be a USAF pilot.  

The main question I need to answer is the scenario where a stud gets fighter/bomber qualified and goes on to the T-38.  Does he already know what fighter/bomber/tanker he will fly when he gets selected for T-38s or is it just a block of those aircraft and he picks the aircraft later depending on his class standing.  Thanks for any help.

Sir, 

If your grandson wants to pursue the USAF pilot life, PLEASE help him find a fighter guard unit. 
 

Great resource.... https://bogidope.com/

There are a bunch of students in SUPT right now that are “off the street” guard and reserve members. In the good old days, you had to enlist in the guard or reserve and maybe, eventually, post bachelors degree, your guard or reserve unit would send you to a commissioning source and then UPT.

Not any more. SUPT has numerous newly minted guard or reserve 2LTs. All of these kids I have spoken with had at least a private pilot certificate (many had their private and instrument rating) before they applied to several guard units. Bottom line, active-duty is a clown show. Go Guard. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Merle Dixon

[WheelsOff]

9 hours ago, Duck said:

Yep. I am one of those guys. Flew 38s and got caught up in some of the worst drops since the bank happened. Some of my buddies never flew a manned USAF aircraft after pilot training. Still an awesome career path but don’t have high expectations and you won’t be disappointed.


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Same. ‘08-12 timeframe had some of the worst drops ever since the 90’s on the -38 side. And they wonder why those year groups are leaving...

Second someone else’s post below about going Guard/Reserves rather than AD. FWIW, I got to teach Gen Holmes’ son when he came through UPT a few years ago...he was going straight into a fighter Guard unit. The COMACC 4-star’s son didn’t go the AD route like his father did. Let that sink in for a minute. 

[Gazmo]

It doesn’t change the calculus.
The calculus, for reference: all non-flying deployments filled by rated personnel that could be filled by a non-rated person is a BS deployment.

I wonder if the Air Force truely saw this train wreck coming 15 years ago or not. Beating the snot out of our equipment, our people and going out of its way to kill all things morale in the operational units has had a devastating effect on all aspects of our service from UPT through senior levels of command. Very sad.

People will talk with their feet. Deploy UPT IP's to make coffee and update slides and they'll eventually walk (they are doing it now). These are dudes looking for a "break" before they go back to an operational assignment (or won't after they separate). So... it is a lose/lose situation for the AF.

[Bender]

Flying student sorties twice a day (if not 3) every day is far from a break. If you could hear some of the “you owe me” type of talk given to UPT IPs, you’d wish JPQ still gave a shit.

We lost when we pulled decision making up to the level intended to supervise. Squadron Commanders don’t even know how to be Squadron Commanders anymore...they’ve already hit the ELP-less FAIP stage.

If you ask me, let a Flt/CC waive the syllabus and just inform the DO. Shit is stupid now...

~Bendy

[Clark Griswold]

Not sure if this was brought up earlier in this thread but what about Contractor / Dept of AF Civilian flight instructors?

I believe the AF is using them for the CAA A-29 program (contractor I think) so why not a limited program (3 years) to get out of the hole without burning out another cohort of the rated force?

If not enough military IPs then civillian IPs?  Thinking recently retired or separated but not ruling out CFIIs necessarily. 

Sidebar question:  Can the total amount of resources available to train SUPT studs handle all this?  Aircraft, Sims, MOAs, MX, etc... or is it all tapped out?  Never put it past the Bobs to try to put 10 lbs of excrement into a 5 lbs bucket... that would lead to opening another SUPT base but if the need is there then it is there.

[Bender]

How many dudes are actually flying 3 student sorties a day at CBM? Even for those I know that fly a lot, that seems to rarely happen, even before the Mx changeover. Are the new MSIs doing a sim and two student sorties now? 

Oh, the exception to the norm, no doubt...but 3 events a day is not uncommon at all (particularly for a FAIP). 2 sorties is the expectation (at least at CBM)...to the extent that if you take too much leave, they expect the triple turn to “make up your increment”.

With the MX issues, yeah...probably couldn’t fly 3 times in a day if you tried. It’s pretty bad (not to mention scheduling shenanigans).

As for MSIs, it’s fairly bad in general, but if your at CBM, you’ll have to wait for the MX issues to pass and summer to roll around again before we can understand how bad it really is.

Personally, I flew 3 times in a day once...I’m good now.

Either way, I don’t think these guys/gals are escaping too much being in AETC. There is something to be said about going home every night...even if you show at all weird hours and work 11-12 hours a day, everyday. Toss in a deployment threat and most would just take a pass over volunteering, I’d think.

~Bendy

[zachbar]

19 minutes ago, JRBac said:

How many dudes are actually flying 3 student sorties a day at CBM? Even for those I know that fly a lot, that seems to rarely happen, even before the Mx changeover. Are the new MSIs doing a sim and two student sorties now? 

I’m not at CBM, but triple turning isn’t a regular thing at DLF. Still, I’m surprised at how tired I am at this assignment. Coming from AMC I thought it would be a chance to take a breather and have a regular schedule, maybe actually get a decent amount of sleep. When I was just a line flyer gaining experience my first year, it was crushing. Show at 7 o’clock, brief, fly, land and debrief by 11:40. Phone a food order in somewhere on base so I can eat during my next briefing. Brief, fly, land and debrief by 1600. GK the studs, do the two gradesheets from earlier, and then finally have an hour to take care of real world problems before I have to go home so I have crew rest for the next day. 

Now as a flight commander it’s busier. I get excited when the next day’s show is more than 12 hours after the current day’s show, because it means I can have some peace and quiet during the 13th hour of the day to get my office work done and still be legal to fly the following morning. Now multiply that by 5 days a week, all month, all year, with the occasional 12 day work week because you took your students cross country. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by zachbar

[Sua Sponte]

23 minutes ago, zachbar said:

I’m not at CBM, but triple turning isn’t a regular thing at DLF. Still, I’m surprised at how tired I am at this assignment. Coming from AMC I thought it would be a chance to take a breather and have a regular schedule, maybe actually get a decent amount of sleep. When I was just a line flyer gaining experience my first year, it was crushing. Show at 7 o’clock, brief, fly, land and debrief by 11:40. Phone a food order in somewhere on base so I can eat during my next briefing. Brief, fly, land and debrief by 1600. GK the studs, do the two gradesheets from earlier, and then finally have an hour to take care of real world problems before I have to go home so I have crew rest for the next day. 

Now as a flight commander it’s busier. I get excited when the next day’s show is more than 12 hours after the current day’s show, because it means I can have some peace and quiet during the 13th hour of the day to get my office work done and still be legal to fly the following morning. Now multiply that by 5 days a week, all month, all year, with the occasional 12 day work week because you took your students cross country. 

Those that think AETC is a cakewalk assignment, never taught in AETC. I worked much harder instructing in AETC, day-to-day, than I ever did in AMC. I just dealt with way more knee jerk reaction that would fuck up your scheduled day events in AMC.