AF enlisted "pilots" - rank doesn't matter, only ability

[gearhog]

"There's no difference between us and them."  AF just found a whole bunch of people willing to fly lower pay without bonuses or incentives.

Quote

‘Rank doesn’t matter, only ability:’ First all-enlisted crew operates RQ-4 Global Hawk in theater

An all-enlisted remotely piloted aircraft crew manned the RQ-4 Global Hawk out of Al Dhafra Air Base in the United Arab Emirates last month — signifying the first time a team composed only of enlisted airmen operated the aircraft downrange.  “Enlisted or officer, the responsibilities of the pilot are the exact same – safe and legal operation of the RQ-4 in international and national airspace,” said Master Sgt. Michael in an Air Force news release. “We are all trained and expected to demonstrate proficiency at all times. There’s no difference between ‘us and them.’ We are pilots, plain and simple.”

Michael, the 380th Expeditionary Operations Group Detachment 1 operations superintendent and pilot, said the Sept. 13 operation highlighted enlisted airmen’s competence piloting the unarmed reconnaissance drone. “It shows that with high level training, rank does not matter, only ability,” Michael said.  It’s not typical for all-enlisted crew to occur within Detachment 1, although it has happened before, the Air Force said.

The Air Force first announced in December 2015 that it would open up flying the RQ-4 Global Hawk to enlisted airmen. The policy change designated the first time enlisted airmen could pilot aircraft since World War II, when the service was still part of the Army.  In May 2017, the first three enlisted airmen graduated from undergraduate RPA training at Joint Base San Antonio-Randolph Air Force Base in Texas. By 2020, the service says it is aiming to have a total of 100 enlisted RPA pilots. 

According to the Air Force, it was “only a matter of time” that an all-enlisted crew of RPA professionals would conduct operations in theater.
“This demonstrates the capabilities and leadership of the enlisted force, both in preparing the mission and executing it,” Michael said.

 

[FLEA]

9 minutes ago, torqued said:

"There's no difference between us and them."  AF just found a whole bunch of people willing to fly lower pay without bonuses or incentives.

I think that remains to be seen when a.) Their commitments are up and b.) If there is an availability of contractor positions for their skill set.

I'm not sure about GH pilots but Reaper pilots with an LR background can pull as far north as tree fiddy. Hard for me to immagine someone on the enlisted pay scale bypassing that as a norm. 

[Homestar]

I don't understand the excitement over the Air Force having Enlisted do Officer jobs for Enlisted pay.  You'd think the Enlisted Union would be up in arms about the lack of pay and incentives given to Enlisted aircrew vis a vis Officer aircrew.

Nobody doubts the competency of Enlisted aircrew.  But it certainly seems ironic that we bash the Air Force for not providing pilot pay commensurate with the civilian economy but we're celebrating the fact that the Air Force can get away with paying an E-4 half of what they would pay an O-4 to do the same job.

This is the argument that goes through my head every time someone shouts "bring back Warrants!"  We should demand that the Air Force pay incentives and bonuses something near the market wage for a particular skill.

(edit to add: I'm not opposed to the enlisted RPA program)

Edited October 31, 2019 by Homestar

[SFG]

Supply and demand. Let it play out.

[HossHarris]

“Operates” rq-4. 
 

operate may not be the correct word ...

Edited October 31, 2019 by HossHarris

[Ghost of James Post]

4 hours ago, Homestar said:

I don't understand the excitement over the Air Force having Enlisted do Officer jobs for Enlisted pay.  You'd think the Enlisted Union would be up in arms about the lack of pay and incentives given to Enlisted aircrew vis a vis Officer aircrew.

Nobody doubts the competency of Enlisted aircrew.  But it certainly seems ironic that we bash the Air Force for not providing pilot pay commensurate with the civilian economy but we're celebrating the fact that the Air Force can get away with paying an E-4 half of what they would pay an O-4 to do the same job.

This is the argument that goes through my head every time someone shouts "bring back Warrants!"  We should demand that the Air Force pay incentives and bonuses something near the market wage for a particular skill.

(edit to add: I'm not opposed to the enlisted RPA program)

100% concur - it's akin to hiring scab workers (not to denigrate the enlisted force ...or scab workers). If you're enlisted, and want to fly ...get your degree, and put your OTS application in. Don't do what officers do for much less.

[HuggyU2]

Ghost of James Post?  Hahaha!!  I'm guessing there's a good story why you picked that.  

[nunya]

Just wait until it's the first all-female, all-enlisted, all one-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple people eater aircrew operating an RQ-4!

[Chuck17]

Bold prediction: Once the GOs return from CORONA, this program will die a quiet death... The E-pilots will be offered officer commissions or retraining, and Congress will get told how unsustainable an idea this was.

Chuck

[Majestik Møøse]

To many enlisted dudes, sending their best qualified guys over to the officers’ team would be akin to a Democrat going to work for a Republican. They identify more with being enlisted than they do about being individuals with upward mobility.

[SFG]

21 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

To many enlisted dudes, sending their best qualified guys over to the officers’ team would be akin to a Democrat going to work for a Republican. They identify more with being enlisted than they do about being individuals with upward mobility.

Shots fired!

[SFG]

4 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Bold prediction: Once the GOs return from CORONA, this program will die a quiet death... The E-pilots will be offered officer commissions or retraining, and Congress will get told how unsustainable an idea this was.

Chuck

Bold prediction: When the GOs return from Corona, this will be the new “way forward.”

[pawnman]

We can't even retain maintainers.  Can't imagine how much worse retention will be when guys have a six-figure job waiting on the outside.

[BFM this]

5 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

To many enlisted dudes, sending their best qualified guys over to the officers’ team would be akin to a Democrat going to work for a Republican. They identify more with being enlisted than they do about being individuals with upward mobility.

Lol, they won’t forget where they came from.  But every last one of their friends would be telling them “Fakouttahere; go get paid, brah!”

[Majestik Møøse]

5 hours ago, K_O said:

Shots fired!

Lol, not at all. Any enlisted guys that want to be enlisted Global Hawk pilots, listen up. You’ll need a bachelors to be competitive in the selection process, so get that. Then, instead of applying for enlisted pilot, apply for OTS instead as a 11X, 12X, or 18X. Then you can go be a Global Hawk pilot for 2x the money. Or you can even fly something else if you want.

[SurelySerious]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

We can't even retain maintainers.  Can't imagine how much worse retention will be when guys have a six-figure job waiting on the outside.

Reference the pred/reaper sensor operators, who can do that on the outside, and the Air Force can tell you they leave in droves. They just don’t care. 

[GKinnear]

I think I remember seeing WIC just expanded to include GH pilots. Makes ya' wonder if/when the E-pilots will be eligible. I honestly thought the entire program was on the chopping block. Interesting times in the GH enterprise...

[SurelySerious]

19 minutes ago, GKinnear said:

I think I remember seeing WIC just expanded to include GH pilots. Makes ya' wonder if/when the E-pilots will be eligible. I honestly thought the entire program was on the chopping block. Interesting times in the GH enterprise...

WTF tactics does a GH have?

[MCO]

48 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

WTF tactics does a GH have?

When to effectively apply ctrl alt delete.

[Majestik Møøse]

9 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

WTF tactics does a GH have?

Not enough. Across both types, they can do SAR, MTI, and SIGINT, all of which are very underutilized. Tactics isn’t just threat reactions.

[SurelySerious]

2 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Not enough. Across both types, they can do SAR, MTI, and SIGINT, all of which are very underutilized. Tactics isn’t just threat reactions.

All things DGS does...

[Prosuper]

On 10/31/2019 at 3:01 PM, Ghost of James Post said:

100% concur - it's akin to hiring scab workers (not to denigrate the enlisted force ...or scab workers). If you're enlisted, and want to fly ...get your degree, and put your OTS application in. Don't do what officers do for much less.

But isn't it the main purpose of having enlisted pilots that USAF can keep them in a flying job for the rest of their career unlike a commissioned ones who forced to do career expanding jobs preparing them for flag rank? How many enlisted to officer to pilot are actually selected, if selected and make it through the training are they selected for Major? Saw some prior E's go the route and get rifted which makes me think thanks for the training hello airlines then we come around to how do we solve the pilot shortage?

[Majestik Møøse]

5 hours ago, Prosuper said:

But isn't it the main purpose of having enlisted pilots that USAF can keep them in a flying job for the rest of their career unlike a commissioned ones who forced to do career expanding jobs preparing them for flag rank? How many enlisted to officer to pilot are actually selected, if selected and make it through the training are they selected for Major? Saw some prior E's go the route and get rifted which makes me think thanks for the training hello airlines then we come around to how do we solve the pilot shortage?

No one is getting RIF’d anymore. Fly as much as you like, excel in your primary duty, get promoted if you stay in. Virtually automatic to Major.

Also, it’s not like career enlisted dudes are immune from staff jobs.

[HossHarris]

8 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

No one is getting RIF’d anymore. Fly as much as you like, excel in your primary duty, get promoted if you stay in. Virtually automatic to Major.

Also, it’s not like career enlisted dudes are immune from staff jobs.

I can almost guarantee there’s a pilot in now that will face a RIF in the future. The only constant is change ....

[war007afa]

8 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Also, it’s not like career enlisted dudes are immune from staff jobs.

Based on years of watching the clown show, I’d bet in less than 5 years the initiative to start placing enlisted pilots into rated staff billets comes up (provided the whole think doesn’t go down the shitter, as per Chuck’s prediction)

Edited November 3, 2019 by war007afa
Autocorrect thinks it’s smarter