Love for Frontier and Spirit?

[Seadogs]

All this talk about Delta, United, AA, Southwest just makes me sick. Where is the love for the other major airlines? FRONTIER anyone? SPIRIT anyone? It's like they don't exist to you people.

[the g-man]

Is this a troll post?

Honestly if you want love about them head over to APC


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[Guardian]

Please define major so we can talk at the same level

[gearhog]

And Epstein didn't kill himself.

[Boomer6]

[08Dawg]

WTF, you forgot the best of the best, Allegiant!

[hindsight2020]

 

26 minutes ago, 08Dawg said:

WTF, you forgot the best of the best, Allegiant!

Yeah buddy. A guy in my old unit got drummed out of AF flying with two consecutive Q3s. Went direct to Allegiant hire (oh the writeup for the second -3 was EPIC). Certain west coast base CA now. *yikes* 

Pretty sweet gig, that day turn business. I wouldn't mind doing that, if these smaller outfits had better career staying power than a senior popping his cherry at prom and a more robust retirement offering. No free lunch in life I guess.

[pilot]

9 hours ago, Guardian said:

Please define major so we can talk at the same level

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_airlines_of_the_United_States

The United States Department of Transportation defines a major carrier or major airline carrier as a U.S.-based airlinethat posts more than $1 billion in revenue during a fiscal year, grouped accordingly as "Group III".

By those definitions JB/Spirit/frontier/allegiant are all “major airlines.” Not to be confused with legacy airlines, ie those existing prior to de-regulation (the big 3, Alaska, Hawaiian). SWA is an exception, as it existed before deregulation, but isn’t considered a legacy carrier. 

Then there’s the terms flag carrier, LCC/ULCC, full service carriers, etc. that further confuse people. And then there are some people just consider the big 3 the “majors” because reasons. 

Back to the OP’s post, I have a buddy at frontier who was split between 2nd and 3rd year FO pay this year. I just saw his pay stub thru 10/31, and he’s at $198,500 gross so far this year (not including his 401k DC). He lives in DEN, picks up a decent amount of premium, has averaged 12-13 days off a month, 7 nights away a month (he usually flies day turns), and will most likely gross $250k by year’s end, plus over $30k in 401k.

If you look at frontier’s fleet/order book, they will have some serious seniority list percentage growth with associated fast upgrades and movement over the next 5-7 years. Their contract isn’t great, their product isn’t great, their clientele isn’t great, their route network isn’t great, but I wouldn’t knock a career there too hard. They will upgrade fast and won’t be stuck flying a guppy their whole career like SWA dudes (who will also be pulling gear for a long time). Different strokes for different folks. I never applied to spirit or frontier, but if I lived in one of their domiciles I wouldn’t be opposed to working there. Ditto for allegiant. I wish I could do day turns and be home every night like them. Living out of a suitcase blows (some overnights are fun, but there’s a reason day turns go senior). 

Edited November 8, 2019 by pilot

[Hacker]

OP, if you don't know why, you haven't been paying attention.  Good luck.

[Sneedro]

As soon as we find someone who loves Spirit or Frontier we will discuss it.  Until then...

[Bigred]

When I lived in San Diego I would occasionally hop a Spirit flight  back and forth to Vegas for about $30 each way. Just walked up to the counter and go. It also worked well when I’d go support the Trough during Nellis weapons school classes and going home on the weekends.

Cheap, easy. But, just like betting in Vegas, it was money I could afford to lose, and I did a couple of times. Their reliability is such that’d I’d never plan an actual trip.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Bigred

[pilot]

15 hours ago, Bigred said:

When I lived in San Diego I would occasionally hop a Spirit flight  back and forth to Vegas for about $30 each way. Just walked up to the counter and go. It also worked well when I’d go support the Trough during Nellis weapons school classes and going home on the weekends.

Cheap, easy. But, just like betting in Vegas, it was money I could afford to lose, and I did a couple of times. Their reliability is such that’d I’d never plan an actual trip.

Pretty sure they fixed their operational issues and now have completion factors/on time performance in line with the rest of the majors. There’s a similar thread going on on APC that mentioned it. 

[Nasty2004]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_airlines_of_the_United_States

The United States Department of Transportation defines a major carrier or major airline carrier as a U.S.-based airlinethat posts more than $1 billion in revenue during a fiscal year, grouped accordingly as "Group III".

By those definitions JB/Spirit/frontier/allegiant are all “major airlines.” Not to be confused with legacy airlines, ie those existing prior to de-regulation (the big 3, Alaska, Hawaiian). SWA is an exception, as it existed before deregulation, but isn’t considered a legacy carrier. 

Then there’s the terms flag carrier, LCC/ULCC, full service carriers, etc. that further confuse people. And then there are some people just consider the big 3 the “majors” because reasons. 

Back to the OP’s post, I have a buddy at frontier who was split between 2nd and 3rd year FO pay this year. I just saw his pay stub thru 10/31, and he’s at $198,500 gross so far this year (not including his 401k DC). He lives in DEN, picks up a decent amount of premium, has averaged 12-13 days off a month, 7 nights away a month (he usually flies day turns), and will most likely gross $250k by year’s end, plus over $30k in 401k.

 

If you look at frontier’s fleet/order book, they will have some serious seniority list percentage growth with associated fast upgrades and movement over the next 5-7 years. Their contract isn’t great, their product isn’t great, their clientele isn’t great, their route network isn’t great, but I wouldn’t knock a career there too hard. They will upgrade fast and won’t be stuck flying a guppy their whole career like SWA dudes (who will also be pulling gear for a long time). Different strokes for different folks. I never applied to spirit or frontier, but if I lived in one of their domiciles I wouldn’t be opposed to working there. Ditto for allegiant. I wish I could do day turns and be home every night like them. Living out of a suitcase blows (some overnights are fun, but there’s a reason day turns go senior). 

 

 

So he’s gotten 170+ credit hours per month, every month this year? And that assumes third-year pay. You say you saw it with your own eyes or I would absolutely not believe it. As it stands I only pretty much don’t believe that he could credit that much in an average month AND have 12-13 days off. In a 30-day bid period with 12 days off, that’s 9.5 hours of credit per day every day that he’s at work. Tough to do over the course of 10 months IMO.

 

 

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[pilot]

10 hours ago, Nasty2004 said:

 

 

So he’s gotten 170+ credit hours per month, every month this year? And that assumes third-year pay. You say you saw it with your own eyes or I would absolutely not believe it. As it stands I only pretty much don’t believe that he could credit that much in an average month AND have 12-13 days off. In a 30-day bid period with 12 days off, that’s 9.5 hours of credit per day every day that he’s at work. Tough to do over the course of 10 months IMO.

 

 

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I called him on his claims bc I also found it hard to believe, and he sent me last month’s pay stub as well as the month‘s break down (similar to a rainmaker breakdown but whatever frontier uses). I don’t want to post it here but I’ll give the breakdown. 

Last month was 11 off, 180:09 hours of pay credit, and 65:57 block, 113:18 total credit (before premium). He flew only one awarded 3 day trip at straight time...the rest was premium he picked up (@150% credit) by dropping and swapping. 18:52 credit at straight pay for that 3 day, 94:26 prem trip credit @ 150% (=141:39 total credit), so that equaled 160:31 credit hours. But for them (something I didn’t realize), any credit above 82 credit hours is @125% pay. So he got 82 hours at regular pay, and 78:31 hours 125%, or 98:09 pay credit for the above 82 credit. That took his total pay credit to 180:09. Total days off: 11. Total overnights: 10. This was a heavier month with heavier credit. He has some lighter ones that took his avg days off up. But with as much premium as he is able to get, and the fact that they get 125% for any credit above 82, their garbage pay rates can actually end up paying pretty well...especially if you are able to do most of your flying at premium (especially once you’re over 82).

I still don’t understand how he can drop most of his awarded trips and fly mostly premium. Apparently he’s been able to do it consistently this whole year as a 2d/3d year FO. My airline is short staffed and has what I thought was a lot of premium out there, but it’s hard to be able to drop enough in the first place to get much premium because the reserve grids never support much dropping...so if we get it it’s generally on a day off or an emergency reassignment. It seems like if it was as easy as he makes it out to be to fly mostly premium trips, everyone there would be doing it, which I find hard to believe is the case. I only know one other guy there and he’s on first year pay on reserve and not getting any of those goods. But I can definitely vouch that one guy is making decent bank on 2nd split with 3rd (half and half) year pay there this year. 
Don’t get me wrong, I still think Frontier sucks, but apparently it isn’t as bad as their pay rates (or their product) appear at first glance. 

[Nasty2004]

Well good for him if he’s able to pull that off. I’d be excited yet terrified to work for an airline that allowed me to drop my schedule then paid me premium to pick up a different schedule. That can’t be a viable business model, but hopefully it works out.