Vance twitter posting 2 killed in T-38 mishap

[M2]

Family Calls USAF Report on Fatal T-38 Crash ‘Grossly and Unjustly Incomplete’

[ThreeHoler]

Last I looked the AF stopped form landings in the T-38 because of this incident. Seems strange they chose to complain about the syllabus at this point.

Title also had nothing to do with the article.


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[Hacker]

41 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

Last I looked the AF stopped form landings in the T-38 because of this incident. Seems strange they chose to complain about the syllabus at this point.

There's no decision that's too conservative for the risk-averse faction of AF management.

[JRBac]

They didn't just stop form landings in the 38. If i recall, its an AETC wide FCIF prohibiting form landings until further notice.

[Hawg15]

Formation landings are an unnecessary risk and have no reason to be done. They should be removed from UPT. When shit goes bad there’s very little chance of being able to recover from it. I have only done 1 in the CAF, and that’s only because it was on an old syllabus that no longer requires them. 

[Danger41]

You really don’t think that’s a skill you should have? Especially as an A-10 guy? The odds of anyone getting BDA and losing radios and/or Nav equipment and needing a formation letdown through the weather would be higher in your community than any other I would think.

And by your logic, why are you practicing BFM? I’m sure you’ve never done any no kidding BFM in combat. I bet you’ve strafed, maybe marked a few targets, and dropped PGM. However, I’m sure you’ve applied “BFM concepts” to a bunch of things. That is why I think form approaches are a good thing. Thoughts?

[Hawg15]

23 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

You really don’t think that’s a skill you should have? Especially as an A-10 guy? The odds of anyone getting BDA and losing radios and/or Nav equipment and needing a formation letdown through the weather would be higher in your community than any other I would think.

And by your logic, why are you practicing BFM? I’m sure you’ve never done any no kidding BFM in combat. I bet you’ve strafed, maybe marked a few targets, and dropped PGM. However, I’m sure you’ve applied “BFM concepts” to a bunch of things. That is why I think form approaches are a good thing. Thoughts?

There’s a big difference between a form approach and a form landing. If I was dragging someone through the weather, or being dragged, it will be with them as far away from me as possible (preferably route), and only until the we break out of the weather. Then I’m going around, chase, or pushing them out to combat trail depending where we broke out. I wont be going anywhere near the flare, especially if any of the flight controls are disconnected or there is damage affecting controllability. If there’s nowhere to get through the weather and they are flying in man reversion then they aren’t getting anywhere near me on the wing. They are flying somewhere safe and punching out.

We don’t train for form takeoffs or landings. At the most you’ll do a form approach, but I can’t remember the last time I’ve talked to anyone that has done one. I don’t think there a reason to fly them below the DA/VDP.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Hawg15

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, Hawg15 said:

There’s a big difference between a form approach and a form landing...words...I don’t think there a reason to fly them below the DA/VDP.

This. It’s been 15 years since my first ride in the Viper and I’ve done precisely one form approach for non-training reasons...and we split to land. Practice form approaches if you think it’s valuable, but I can’t think of a solid reason to practice the landings in a modern fighter. Even if you really shit the bed with fuel planning to a socked-in field with zero divert options, I’m pretty sure most of us would make it happen even if we’ve never done one. 
 

This same discussion is happening on the OFP Facebook page with dudes pitching in their “form land war stories” (barf).  What do they all have in common?  F-4s and Thuds. Get over it, dinosaurs. 

[Terminator5]

A toast to both of them. Was reading these past couple posts and happened across this video and found it interesting. Reference time 4:35 in the video

 

 

[SocialD]

9 hours ago, Terminator5lf said:

Was reading these past couple posts and happened across this video and found it interesting. Reference time 4:35 in the video

 

Ah yes 2013, the last time I actually flew a form TO/LND.  I actually liked flying them, so I was probably one of the last guys in the squadron to give them up.  If they bring back the currency, I'll be the first to jump back on them, but there really isn't much of a need anymore.  Now that MMC has gotten the CDU, I could MAYBE see a need for one if you were to ever have a CDU AND HUD failure.  Even then, I'm fairly sure I could safely fly it with just a form approach.  

[brickhistory]

 

On 5/4/2020 at 8:58 PM, ViperStud said:

This. It’s been 15 years since my first ride in the Viper and I’ve done precisely one form approach for non-training reasons...and we split to land. Practice form approaches if you think it’s valuable, but I can’t think of a solid reason to practice the landings in a modern fighter. Even if you really shit the bed with fuel planning to a socked-in field with zero divert options, I’m pretty sure most of us would make it happen even if we’ve never done one. 
 

This same discussion is happening on the OFP Facebook page with dudes pitching in their “form land war stories” (barf).  What do they all have in common?  F-4s and Thuds. Get over it, dinosaurs. 

Can we quote you in 30 years?

"Man," said the F-69 pilot, "those Viper dinosaurs get on my nerves..."