Is it ok for a MSgt to tell a Capt to take out the garbage?

[Danger41]

Even with enlisted aircrew, a lot of people of varying ranks think they have to be everyone’s friend. Not the case. Don’t be a jerk to the E’s, but be clear, direct, and fair with them (that whole golden rule thing) and you’ll do fine. 
 

Biggest thing I’ve seen with E’s is that if you know what you’re doing and treat them respectfully, fairly, and lead them, they’ll run through a wall for you. If you’re a weak person that tries to be everyone’s friend, they’ll run all over you.

[LJDRVR]

I was an NCO and here's my perspective. If he told you take out he trash, lock his worthless ass up at attention and read him his rights under article 31. Tell him you're investigating him for insubordination. If he waives his rights and answers your questions, then you can have a respectful conversation with some give and take. He'll walk away from knowing a whole lot more about his place in the world related to who you are and what you do and what his responsibilities are.

If he's dumb enough to clam up, then sweat him with an actual investigation into article 91. Get his leadership involved. Ruin his entire month.

C****s like that gotta be put in their place early and made an example of if you want good order and discipline in your unit.

[Marco]

Pump the brakes there, turbo. Refer to page 1 of this thread where further explanation/context of the situation was requested. As yet, none has been given. Kinda difficult to successfully armchair quarterback a situation via the Internet when you weren’t there, even if you used to be a NCO.  But hey, I’m just a dumbshit Guard guy and business owner. If that’s how you wish to lead, press. Good luck.

[pawnman]

19 hours ago, LJDRVR said:

I was an NCO and here's my perspective. If he told you take out he trash, lock his worthless ass up at attention and read him his rights under article 31. Tell him you're investigating him for insubordination. If he waives his rights and answers your questions, then you can have a respectful conversation with some give and take. He'll walk away from knowing a whole lot more about his place in the world related to who you are and what you do and what his responsibilities are.

If he's dumb enough to clam up, then sweat him with an actual investigation into article 91. Get his leadership involved. Ruin his entire month.

C****s like that gotta be put in their place early and made an example of if you want good order and discipline in your unit.

I've had students like you at the FTU.  Fresh-faced FAIPs who think they can run roughshod over the enlisted ARMS troops and Intel troops.  I don't like to yell at people, but I did take a certain perverse pleasure in putting those assholes in their place.

If I'm his leadership, I'm likely going to give you a little mentoring session about the right and wrong way to treat people.  Not open an investigation into my SNCO.

Edited December 26, 2019 by pawnman

[SocialD]

Prior NCO here as well.  I've been amazed at the some of the things I've heard junior enlisted say.  I mean like stuff I wouldn't have even said to a MSgt when I was SSgt.  The only time I've ever done a spot correction was one day sitting OPS SUP and a particularly arrogant SSgt airfield kid (they augment our ARMS folks at the ops desk in the ANG) mouthed off to one of our SMSgt NCOICs.  No need to even put him at attention and start yelling...just a stern, look at me and listen to what I'm telling you, "you better unfuck your attitude and what you say to your superiors" or we're going to go behind closed doors and have a talk with you and your SQ/CC and talk about whether you still deserve to be an NCO.  Note: I didn't curse.  Kid figured it out and I haven't had a problem since.  If you have to lock someone at attention and start the yelling act, you've already lost that person.

At least in my base, I've never really had problems with SNCOs...of course, a vast majority of our SNCOs are salt of the earth types that I have great respect for.  My E-9 from my enlisted days in the early 2000s, is still an E-9 on my base and has over 38 years of service.  I'd run through a brick wall for that guy.  That said, he'd never ask that of me and was an amazing follower/mentor when I was a young Capt PROJO.  He served as my NCOIC and let me run the show with gentle nudges here and there...talk about a truly humbling learning experience.  

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by SocialD

[herkbum]

Prior NCO here as well.  I've been amazed at the some of the things I've heard junior enlisted say.  I mean like stuff I wouldn't have even said to a MSgt when I was SSgt.  The only time I've ever done a spot correction was one day sitting OPS SUP and a particularly arrogant SSgt airfield kid (they augment our ARMS folks at the ops desk in the ANG) mouthed off to one of our SMSgt NCOICs.  No need to even put him at attention and start yelling...just a stern, look at me and listen to what I'm telling you, "you better un your attitude and what you say to your superiors" or we're going to go behind closed doors and have a talk with you and your SQ/CC and talk about whether you still deserve to be an NCO.  Note: I didn't curse.  Kid figured it out and I haven't had a problem since.  If you have to lock someone at attention and start the yelling act, you've already lost that person.
At least in my base, I've never really had problems with SNCOs...of course, a vast majority of our SNCOs are salt of the earth types that I have great respect for.  My E-9 from my enlisted days in the early 2000s, is still an E-9 on my base and has over 38 years of service.  I'd run through a brick wall for that guy.  That said, he'd never ask that of me and was an amazing follower/mentor when I was a young Capt PROJO.  He served as my NCOIC and let me run the show with gentle nudges here and there...talk about a truly humbling learning experience.  
 
 

This is the correct response. Great job and also signifies the 2 ANG units I’ve been in over the past 27 years.


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[LJDRVR]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

I've had students like you at the FTU.  Fresh-faced FAIPs who think they can run roughshod over the enlisted ARMS troops and Intel troops.  I don't like to yell at people, but I did take a certain perverse pleasure in putting those assholes in their place.

If I'm his leadership, I'm likely going to give you a little mentoring session about the right and wrong way to treat people.  Not open an investigation into my SNCO.

FWIW, if I'm honest with myself, I would go about that in a much more kind manner. My post was sort of me flippantly regressing to the 22 year old NCO I was and how we did things in 1993. It was more an insight into how we would have handled a fellow enlisted member than it was a statement about how an officer in 2019 would or should deal with that scenario. I was raised by E-5s and E-6s that had gang tattoos from their youth in the seventies. I'm not arguing that proves efficacy, just providing some perspective about one piece of the leadership culture where I grew up. The "scared straight" gambit was often effective.

I most certainly can't offer up any insight into today's USAF, I left a long time ago. Nor can I claim any experience as an officer. I'm just a former shoe clerk who now works as an airline pilot.

I will say this though, you cannot allow that type of insubordination to go unchecked. You can get creative with how you choose to respond, but the E-9 in question should leave the encounter with absolutely no question in his mind that telling an officer to do something is not a tactic he'd ever employ again.

Sometimes it's fun to vomit up a little bit of foolishness on the screen, thank you and Marco for keeping me honest. You are both absolutely correct.

Edited December 26, 2019 by LJDRVR