Finally done in Afghanistan?

[HeloDude]

4 minutes ago, Negatory said:

Address your point if you have one. 

I already did…you dismissed it.  Obama literally said he supported the Afghanistan war at the beginning of his presidency and wanted to expand it…and he did.

[panchbarnes]

Reports of Kabul Airport under attack.

Someone just posted this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/AuroraIntel/status/1426947997104054277

[Negatory]

2 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

I already did…you dismissed it.  Obama literally said he supported the Afghanistan war at the beginning of his presidency and wanted to expand it…and he did.

Fair enough, I’m conflating the whole Middle East to Afghanistan. My bad. You’re right that Trump supported the withdrawal from Afghanistan more than Obama.

I guess I didn’t see it as pertinent to my original argument that the DFP goes back to Bush/Cheney giving Obama and Trump a no win situation either way. I don’t think that, on the whole, Trump significantly more stabilized the Middle East as a whole compared to Obama/Bush, especially when it comes to things like conflict with Iran. I agree with your premise that Obama and Bush fucked it. I just also think Trump did nothing helpful. I currently think Biden is doing, more or less, the right thing by giving up.

Backing it up, the right move was to fiercely crush the taliban cities, with pretty liberal ROE, then gtfo. When there is inevitably another terrorist attack in the next couple years, Biden better be ready to slay some people cheaply and send a message, all while avoiding war. I doubt he will be, but that’s where I’m at.

[DirkDiggler]

4 minutes ago, Negatory said:

I get the sentiment, but not ever asking questions just because I am deployed to Afghanistan and you shouldn’t be disrespectful to me isn’t productive for the nation.

See why it was seen as unpatriotic to even question the Iraq war in 2003.

Let me be more clear.

I sincerely hope that next week or the week after, once we’ve completed the withdrawal and our guys are safe, there’s a start of some really serious lessons learned and quite honestly soul searching on the part of our civilian and military leadership.

I hope that we dig real deep into why we went, why we stayed, why we kept lying to ourselves year after year, and why we finally decided to leave.  I’m not holding my breath that many in our leadership are going to take either responsibility or that there will be any accountability for the lives lost, lives damaged, or money wasted.

I just don’t think that right now, while our brothers and sisters are literally finishing the job, is the right time to have the conversation.

One guy’s opinion.

[gearhog]

5 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

Let me be more clear.

I sincerely hope that next week or the week after, once we’ve completed the withdrawal and our guys are safe, there’s a start of some really serious lessons learned and quite honestly soul searching on the part of our civilian and military leadership.

I hope that we dig real deep into why we went, why we stayed, why we kept lying to ourselves year after year, and why we finally decided to leave.  I’m not holding my breath that many in our leadership are going to take either responsibility or that there will be any accountability for the lives lost, lives damaged, or money wasted.

I just don’t think that right now, while our brothers and sisters are literally finishing the job, is the right time to have the conversation.

One guy’s opinion.

Mark Milley is too busy trying to understand "White Rage" to do any soul searching in AFG.

Video of the scramble to board a C-17 in Kabul while AAA is visible in the  sky. Sad.

https://twitter.com/IntelOmarion/status/1426950526416134151?s=20

[hindsight2020]

This shit has to be spelled out? Ok then:

Defense contractor profiteering aka perennial war was always the feature, not the bug. This was another win for our Neoliberal trans-national corporate masters and their political appointees (aka our civilian bosses), in so far as they were able to keep the grift going this long. Not to fear, we're pivoting our aimless ordnance expenditure to Somalia, Syria and whatever other s-hole we can cajole our way into. I'm sure we'll come up with another empire adventure (mark of declining Empires btw) soon enough.

I'm sorry some of you keep having to go through the indignity of losing your religion publicly about whatever adult bedtime stories your so-called combatant commanders served you, but in my entire service I've never had any illusions about what my indentured servitude is ultimately used for. The AVF can be Faustian that way (take it up with Congress if you don't like it). Everything from our contracting/capitalization processes, congressional district meddling,/pork-barreling, REMF deployment overhead costs (the Europeans aren't innocent either, as economic beneficiaries of that grift), to the reason for the garrison locations my family ate for the first 12 years of my contract in (tactical priorities my @ss). All of it has the MIC motive as the central feature. Too reductionist for your taste? Copy, keep believing in your adult bedtime stories then, makes no difference in the end.

That's why it incenses me that when adventures go sideways it's always us "POS warmongering green suiters" taking the pot shots about being educated fools for partaking in the lie, while these f%cking civilian employees (most living stateside working for weapons manufactures and coming home to their upper middle class lives) who got fat for 2 decades from the safety of their manicured suburbs are never admonished for their part in this grift, while our cohort gets shot up all to hell (Capt Nylander, RIP brother).

And before I get mistaken for some conscientious objector/pacifist, I'm extremely hawkish on the CCP. If the US does not intervene in an attempted military annexation of Taiwan, ding dong the witch is dead and so is the era of American Empire. Taiwan will be our Suez Canal moment (symbolic British Empire end by historical consensus). We got 99 problems as an Empire, but life under CCP as the global hegemon doesn't inspire me wrt my progeny's life and material conditions. Digressing on that for the sake of the topic at hand. Everybody stay safe and get home soon.

 

ETA: That picture of the Chinook is very apropos. 100% fair representation. Vietnam touched my family as well, so the symbolism is not lost on me. 

[gearhog]

4 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

This shit has to be spelled out? Ok then:

Defense contractor profiteering aka perennial war was always the feature, not the bug. This was another win for our Neoliberal trans-national corporate masters and their political appointees (aka our civilian bosses), in so far as they were able to keep the grift going this long. Not to fear, we're pivoting our aimless ordnance expenditure to Somalia, Syria and whatever other s-hole we can cajole our way into. I'm sure we'll come up with another empire adventure (mark of declining Empires btw) soon enough.

I'm sorry some of you keep having to go through the indignity of losing your religion publicly about whatever adult bedtime stories your so-called combatant commanders served you, but in my entire service I've never had any illusions about what my indentured servitude is ultimately used for. The AVF can be Faustian that way (take it up with Congress if you don't like it). Everything from our contracting/capitalization processes, congressional district meddling,/pork-barreling, REMF deployment overhead costs (the Europeans aren't innocent either, as economic beneficiaries of that grift), to the reason for the garrison locations my family ate for the first 12 years of my contract in (tactical priorities my @ss). All of it has the MIC motive as the central feature. Too reductionist for your taste? Copy, keep believing in your adult bedtime stories then, makes no difference in the end.

That's why it incenses me that when adventures go sideways it's always us "POS warmongering green suiters" taking the pot shots about being educated fools for partaking in the lie, while these f%cking civilian employees (most living stateside working for weapons manufactures and coming home to their upper middle class lives) who got fat for 2 decades from the safety of their manicured suburbs are never admonished for their part in this grift, while our cohort gets shot up all to hell (Capt Nylander, RIP brother).

And before I get mistaken for some conscientious objector/pacifist, I'm extremely hawkish on the CCP. If the US does not intervene in an attempted military annexation of Taiwan, ding dong the witch is dead and so is the era of American Empire. Taiwan will be our Suez Canal moment (symbolic British Empire end by historical consensus). We got 99 problems as an Empire, but life under CCP as the global hegemon doesn't inspire me wrt my progeny's life and material conditions. Digressing on that for the sake of the topic at hand. Everybody stay safe and get home soon.

 

ETA: That picture of the Chinook is very apropos. 100% fair representation. Vietnam touched my family as well, so the symbolism is not lost on me. 

 

[hindsight2020]

6 minutes ago, RedEye1911 said:

Get this:

The exact same CH-46 tail is being used to evacuate Americans from the US Embassy in Afghanistan today as was used to evacuate people from Saigon in 1975. What an absolute joke.

 

 

https://www.apimages.com/.../e08a5d9334c14988954b2d1.../24/0

https://www.helis.com/database/cn/8983/

 

 

If that's true...Holy. Shit. Yeah, we jumped the shark a while ago didn't we? 😮

[MD]

11 minutes ago, RedEye1911 said:

Get this:

The exact same CH-46 tail is being used to evacuate Americans from the US Embassy in Afghanistan today as was used to evacuate people from Saigon in 1975. What an absolute joke.

 

 

https://www.apimages.com/.../e08a5d9334c14988954b2d1.../24/0

https://www.helis.com/database/cn/8983/

 

The CH-46 in the foreground on the carrier deck appears to have the BuNo of 154030, not 038. Unless I’m looking at it wrong or looking at the wrong tail?

[gearhog]

21 minutes ago, RedEye1911 said:

Get this:

The exact same CH-46 tail is being used to evacuate Americans from the US Embassy in Afghanistan today as was used to evacuate people from Saigon in 1975. What an absolute joke.

 

 

https://www.apimages.com/.../e08a5d9334c14988954b2d1.../24/0

https://www.helis.com/database/cn/8983/

 

 

 

 

No F'n way...

Gotta be a glitch in the simulation.

[MD]

1 minute ago, torqued said:

No F'n way...

Gotta be a glitch in the simulation.

Trying to make out if that number on the tail of the parked -46 on deck there says 038 or 030.

[pawnman]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/how-america-failed-afghanistan/619740/

[MD]

18 minutes ago, RedEye1911 said:

You're looking at the wrong CH-46. Look on the deck just above the one with 25 on the side. Pretty much the only serial number you can see.

038 = N38TU

My eyes must be going out. It looks like 030 as opposed to 038 on the tail there. But if it is, what an amazing coincidence.

Edit: and absolutely agree, the CH-46s and CH-47s doing the evac…….1975, welcome to 2021.

Edited August 15, 2021 by MD

[MD]

Wonder if the B-52s ever hit the airfields, or if that mission cancelled or never put forward?

Edited August 15, 2021 by MD

[gearhog]

Remember “Baghdad Bob”?

 

https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1426957410426630154?s=20
 

[Pancake]

2 hours ago, RedEye1911 said:

There was never anything to gain in Afghanistan.

Really? I wonder why the Chinese want in so bad. And I’m not talking natural resources.

In time, we’ll lament leaving, ostensibly giving complete freedom of movement to the Chinese, from Iran to North Korea.

Geopolitics evolves. The COIN mission was a never-ending failure that should have pivoted a decade ago. Afghanistan, frankly, is more important to US National security today than ever before, and we just handed it over to our number one peer challenger.

[LiquidSky]

Sums up this snafu:

 

[Clark Griswold]

Really? I wonder why the Chinese want in so bad. And I’m not talking natural resources.
In time, we’ll lament leaving, ostensibly giving complete freedom of movement to the Chinese, from Iran to North Korea.
Geopolitics evolves. The COIN mission was a never-ending failure that should have pivoted a decade ago. Afghanistan, frankly, is more important to US National security today than ever before, and we just handed it over to our number one peer challenger.

Just a guess but I think it’s possible they may propose a pipeline thru Afghanistan to link Iranian petroleum exports to the PRC
Throw in further potential rare earth minerals mining, weapons, utilities, telecom sales and funding them as a useful proxy to harass, disrupt, attack Western / US interests / forces when beneficial to the overall interest of the PRC you can see the utility of the PRC’s efforts to court the Taliban.
Belt-n-Road may get another partner


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jice]

8 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Just a guess but I think it’s possible they may propose a pipeline thru Afghanistan to link Iranian petroleum exports to the PRC
Throw in further potential rare earth minerals mining, weapons, utilities, telecom sales and funding them as a useful proxy to harass, disrupt, attack Western / US interests / forces when beneficial to the overall interest of the PRC you can see the utility of the PRC’s efforts to court the Taliban.
Belt-n-Road may get another partner


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

“Hi Afghanistan, great to hear from you! Yeah! Those long range SAMs? Remember? That was part of the deal. They’re for your protection. You won’t even notice them as they drive through on your nice new highways to help “protect” you from aggressors in the Arabian Gulf. Oh… Having trouble paying for the road? Don’t worry. You can keep it, just let us periodically plop some J-20s and H-20s at those nice long airfields you’ve got. We’ll even fix them up for you at almost no charge. Mineral extraction and export rights in perpetuity should do the trick. Good, good. Well, nice talking to you… Just give us a call on the 5G network we’ve installed if there’s anything else you need.  We’ll probably have something in mind for you already; funny how that works. Oh, by the way, have you heard about how great Beidou is? No. Sorry, we’ve got dinner plans in South America tonight, but maybe tennis in Malaysia next week?”

[Milton]

To think that the "country" of Afghanistan, made up of some 50 dialects and numerous tribes and villages, would somehow embrace twenty-first century democratic governance...is a bit flawed.

Our military did just about everything asked of it at the tactical and operational levels...from counterterrorism, intel, local stability ops, close air support, airlift, provincial reconstruction, logistics, etc.  The broader strategy was a farce.  We ousted al Qaeda and crippled the Taliban in short order.  It took 10 years, but we got bin Laden (in Pakistan, go figure).  But we evolved and expanded objectives foolishly.  Rebuilding Afg, installing democratic governance, and the like.  

What we should have realized is that Afghanistan is not so much of a country, but a place simply bounded by other sovereign borders.  Its mostly tribes, living in an ancient, almost savage like subsistence.  Vulnerable to takeover by extremists like the Taliban, but incapable of modern governance, foreign to human rights and civil liberties.  Its painful to think of the handful of decent people there who, for a fleeting moment grasped some form of western ideal.  The young women and children who saw a glimmer of hope in that they might be treated as equals, and have some form of opportunity without violent oppression.  All if this overshadowed by an arcane savagery, cowardice, or ambivalence in the face of the Taliban.

While I feel sorrow for some, I am nearly indifferent to the many who are indifferent themselves.  Beyond political struggle, economic development, and social progress is one immovable hegemon: culture.  Their culture, to the extent it can be defined...sucks.  

If you were to find a bum on the side of the road and place him into Harvard Medical School, what would happen? To think a western coalition, in a matter of two decades would transform Afghanistan into a modern democracy is a fools errand.  

The world is a strange place.

[Clark Griswold]

“Hi Afghanistan, great to hear from you! Yeah! Those long range SAMs? Remember? That was part of the deal. They’re for your protection. You won’t even notice them as they drive through on your nice new highways to help “protect” you from aggressors in the Arabian Gulf. Oh… Having trouble paying for the road? Don’t worry. You can keep it, just let us periodically plop some J-20s and H-20s at those nice long airfields you’ve got. We’ll even fix them up for you at almost no charge. Mineral extraction and export rights in perpetuity should do the trick. Good, good. Well, nice talking to you… Just give us a call on the 5G network we’ve installed if there’s anything else you need.  We’ll probably have something in mind for you already; funny how that works. Oh, by the way, have you heard about how great Beidou is? No. Sorry, we’ve got dinner plans in South America tonight, but maybe tennis in Malaysia next week?”

Yup
They lead with soft power then gradually get harder (sts) - first sample by the dealer is always free


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scooter14]

“Hi Afghanistan, great to hear from you! Yeah! Those long range SAMs? Remember? That was part of the deal. They’re for your protection. You won’t even notice them as they drive through on your nice new highways to help “protect” you from aggressors in the Arabian Gulf. Oh… Having trouble paying for the road? Don’t worry. You can keep it, just let us periodically plop some J-20s and H-20s at those nice long airfields you’ve got. We’ll even fix them up for you at almost no charge. Mineral extraction and export rights in perpetuity should do the trick. Good, good. Well, nice talking to you… Just give us a call on the 5G network we’ve installed if there’s anything else you need.  We’ll probably have something in mind for you already; funny how that works. Oh, by the way, have you heard about how great Beidou is? No. Sorry, we’ve got dinner plans in South America tonight, but maybe tennis in Malaysia next week?”

Who? The Uighurs...yeah don’t worry about them...TTYL!

[pawnman]

52 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Just a guess but I think it’s possible they may propose a pipeline thru Afghanistan to link Iranian petroleum exports to the PRC
Throw in further potential rare earth minerals mining, weapons, utilities, telecom sales and funding them as a useful proxy to harass, disrupt, attack Western / US interests / forces when beneficial to the overall interest of the PRC you can see the utility of the PRC’s efforts to court the Taliban.
Belt-n-Road may get another partner


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wish them the same success we had. 

[Clark Griswold]

I wish them the same success we had. 

I hear ya but they’ve got different goals

Them - Acquire wealth and power without giving a shit about anything else or how

Us - Fix everything and make everyone nice immediately

We’re kinda at a disadvantage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jice]

10 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I wish them the same success we had. 

They’ll likely do the smart strategic thing that we weren’t willing to do: overtly exploit and destroy in pursuit of their interests.

Democracy, human rights, individual freedoms? Who cares. They’re not going to evacuate the leader; if he want to live, he’ll figure out a way to pay his debts to the PRC. If unable, somebody else is holding the party’s hand in the cue.

Their presence will be cheaper monetarily, and they’ll be more than willing to pay in a few hundred human lives per year for a Chinese bloc to the Persian Gulf. (“The Arabs barely use it anymore, strange… we’ve renamed it for our good friends”)

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by jice