Finally done in Afghanistan?

[fire4effect]

22 minutes ago, Breckey said:

Initial indications from CENTCOM allude to there being large secondaries since the target was a VBIED. 

"Think you used enough dynamite there Butch?" 

3 minutes ago, Waingro said:

For 19+ years the Taliban have claimed civilian casualties for virtually every strike. Interesting to see that their propaganda arm now has Americans doing it for them. 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by fire4effect

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, Waingro said:

For 19+ years the Taliban have claimed civilian casualties for virtually every strike. Interesting to see that their propaganda arm now has Americans doing it for them. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to indicate a belief that civilian casualties and collateral damage as a result of this confirmed drone strike did not occur, because in the past, similar things have been lied about at least some of the time.

In spite of reports from actual reporters on the ground and an acknowledgement of that possibility from CENTCOM, you've concluded that the whole story is propaganda and lies, and sharing it is doing the work of the Taliban.

Believe me, I don't want to see things like this happen, and I didn't want to believe the monumental levels of incompetence that have consistently occurred prior to this alleged tragedy are real. But let's face facts, the conditions and leadership that have created the situation we now find ourselves haven't changed, so it's not a stretch to acknowledge that, yeah, we're still fkucing up and and accidentally blowing up innocents, perpetuating the cycle.

Perhaps CENTCOM will release the video and it will be compared to the widely available graphic images on the ground. Perhaps they don't. Perhaps it's better to let people believe "This is a lie. This couldn't have happened."

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by torqued

[gearhog]

Propagandists strike again:

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-08-30/family-says-several-children-killed-us-missile-strike-kabul

[HU&W]

15 hours ago, uhhello said:

The chess board placement was key.  

It’s the Trompowsky opener.  He knows he doesn’t have a chance if he plays this traditionally, so he’s trying to create subversive early dilemmas for the person playing black.  Which, from the camera angle, is us.  The viewer. 

[fire4effect]

40 minutes ago, torqued said:

Propagandists strike again:

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-08-30/family-says-several-children-killed-us-missile-strike-kabul

First off in my career I've been in close enough proximity to the bad guys ordnance going off that this is close to home for me. I'm personally not saying this didn't happen but the fanatics doing this will lie (not surprisingly) on casualties and their numbers and purposely place explosives among civilians for obvious reasons. I would guess it's likely the secondary explosion could easily have been the cause of many of the casualties. As I recall a few years back in another Kabul neighborhood there was a seizure of something on the order of 25000 lbs of  fertilizer smuggled in cement bags along with all the other fixings needed to make one helluva a VBIED. Just as an example. So yes there is precedent. Unfortunately with no ground troops in the area now air-ground ordnance is really the only way to deal with the threat. Yes it's a tragedy innocents get caught in the middle.

[gearhog]

36 minutes ago, fire4effect said:

First off in my career I've been in close enough proximity to the bad guys ordnance going off that this is close to home for me. I'm personally not saying this didn't happen but the fanatics doing this will lie (not surprisingly) on casualties and their numbers and purposely place explosives among civilians for obvious reasons. I would guess it's likely the secondary explosion could easily have been the cause of many of the casualties. As I recall a few years back in another Kabul neighborhood there was a seizure of something on the order of 25000 lbs of  fertilizer smuggled in cement bags along with all the other fixings needed to make one helluva a VBIED. Just as an example. So yes there is precedent. Unfortunately with no ground troops in the area now air-ground ordnance is really the only way to deal with the threat. Yes it's a tragedy innocents get caught in the middle.

Brother, I get all that. But here's the way it seems to me:

The most embarrassing bumblefcku in American military history had just occurred due to poor decisions and assessment of risk, leading to the conditions that caused to 13 of our military brothers and sisters and countless civilians being killed at the airport gate.

We're further shocked and humiliated, and Biden announces that this evil attack will not go unpunished. The same leadership, same decision process, same intelligence methodology that missed the attack at the gate miraculously finds a VBIED in a Kabul neighborhood the next day. So we shoot at an explosive laden vehicle in a dense neighborhood just before our final exist and blame civilian casualties on secondary explosions. Occam's Razor.

[SocialD]

10 hours ago, torqued said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to indicate a belief that civilian casualties and collateral damage as a result of this confirmed drone strike did not occur, because in the past, similar things have been lied about at least some of the time.

 

Having seen these shit heads carry out their dead, then drag dead civilians into the rubble to use as propaganda, tend to jade ones view on "suspected civilian casualties."  I'm not saying it didn't happen, and with this rusty coat-hanger abortion of an operation, nothing would surprise me.  I'll just forever be skeptical of these types of reports.

[JBueno]

Ok, so the other option was what…

+200 dead over at the airport?

 

[gearhog]

8 minutes ago, JBueno said:

Ok, so the other option was what…

+200 dead over at the airport?

 

That's always the only other option.

[fire4effect]

Actually while I'm thinking about it. The best targets to help mitigate the VBIED threat IMHO are the fertilizer factories in Pakistan. As far as I'm concerned anything that "happens" in a fertilizer factory  is an industrial accident (see Beirut blast). I'm not a chemist/agricultural specialist but I thought there are alternative  that are a much less volatile than ammonium nitrate though more expensive. Either way I would pay subsidies for an alternative so ammonium nitrate is less available.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Seeing reports saying the last American forces are out.  

[Clark Griswold]

Fox just said the same

[fire4effect]

I guess it's time to start all in backing the locals in the Panjshir Valley. i.e. "Pimping the Flintstones"

[Premo]

So are we...finally done in Afghanistan?

[lloyd christmas]

The administration informed us today that hundreds of US citizens were left behind.  US citizens…  The last US military personnel left today and the war has been declared over after 20 years.  Yet, nothing today from the President.  Nothing.  It’s truly astounding.  

[fire4effect]

My first Rum and Coke in 4 months. To the fallen 🥃

[DirkDiggler]

https://time.com/6092818/iraq-afghanistan-unnecessary-wars/

 

  Interesting opinion piece written by Karl Marlantes (if you haven't read the book Matterhorn I'd highly recommend it).  I don't agree with everything he says in this piece but some of it definitely resonates with me.

  Now that our brothers and sisters are finally out of that worthless excuse for a country, I truly hope the US military starts a serious, thorough internal look at why we went (fairly self explanatory), why we stayed, and why things ended the way they did.  I don't believe history repeats itself but it does rhyme; if we don't generate an honest, brutal debrief this could happen again. 

[jrizzell]

https://time.com/6092818/iraq-afghanistan-unnecessary-wars/
 
if we don't generate an honest, brutal debrief this could happen again. 

This will 100% happen again…

[DirkDiggler]

15 minutes ago, jrizzell said:

 

This will 100% happen again…

 

Why?

[jrizzell]

Why?

One of the challenges we have as a nation, is our love of freedom, and assuming everyone in the world wants our version of society. Do I think there’s anything better, no. But if your country has never known “Western Democracy”, you won’t embrace it like we do.

I’m my opinion, the civilian and military leadership, ascribe to that US dominate worldview, and it shapes the decisions they support.

We need to divorce ourselves from endlessly “spreading democracy” across the globe. And just perform, limited and targeted ops.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[HeloDude]

15 minutes ago, jrizzell said:

 

One of the challenges we have as a nation, is our love of freedom…

 

I think if 2020-2021 has taught me, or better yet, has “reassured me” one thing, is that most people in this country actually don’t want or love freedom.  They’ll tell you they do, but then caveat with, “but…”.  This is on the right and the left.

”Freedom for me, but not for thee”

[DirkDiggler]

12 minutes ago, jrizzell said:

 

One of the challenges we have as a nation, is our love of freedom, and assuming everyone in the world wants our version of society. Do I think there’s anything better, no. But if your country has never known “Western Democracy”, you won’t embrace it like we do.

I’m my opinion, the civilian and military leadership, ascribe to that US dominate worldview, and it shapes the decisions they support.

We need to divorce ourselves from endlessly “spreading democracy” across the globe. And just perform, limited and targeted ops.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

 

I agree with you.  I'm also hopeful (though it's way too early to tell) that maybe the experiences of the last 20 years in Afghanistan shape the next generation of military leaders (similar to Powell and Schwarzkopf after Vietnam) and that we don't get involved in nation building, "spreading democracy", etc anytime soon.

  Unfortunately a lot of the retired generals that occupied top positions during OEF are already spouting "it was sustainable, if only we had another year", blah blah blah.  I frankly think it's face saving bullshit and they don't want their names associated in the history books with commanding a lost war.  I'll be very curious to see what the current sitting generals' narrative will be (if any) moving forward.   

[ViperMan]

1 hour ago, jrizzell said:

One of the challenges we have as a nation, is our love of freedom, and assuming everyone in the world wants our version of society. Do I think there’s anything better, no. But if your country has never known “Western Democracy”, you won’t embrace it like we do.

I’m my opinion, the civilian and military leadership, ascribe to that US dominate worldview, and it shapes the decisions they support.

We need to divorce ourselves from endlessly “spreading democracy” across the globe. And just perform, limited and targeted ops.

Yep. We need to very narrowly define victory and then effing stick to it. Cheaper, and more effective militarily and strategically. Since when has the US military been an armed version of habitat for humanity???

[Pooter]

2 hours ago, lloyd christmas said:

The administration informed us today that hundreds of US citizens were left behind.  US citizens…  The last US military personnel left today and the war has been declared over after 20 years.  Yet, nothing today from the President.  Nothing.  It’s truly astounding.  

Well if you ask the White House all those Americans still there just must not have "wanted to leave." They're just having a nice summer sabbatical hiding in the closet to avoid the stonings and beheadings. 

[DirkDiggler]

For anyone looking for solid books on our Afghanistan experience, I'd recommend the following:

The Outpost by Jake Trapper

The Hardest Place by Wesley Morgan

Directorate S by Steve Coll

  All these can be very tough reads at times and since they were all written prior to us leaving the history/historiography may change with time but I found them all worth reading.