Finally done in Afghanistan?

[AirGuardianC141747]

Godspeed to all of you serving still and Thank You. What a crock of Crown Royal as many stations have already started spinning this into “a President who got us out of Afghanistan” while ignoring the HOW it was done and anyone who thinks otherwise knows better. As veterans of Bagram, Kabul, Kandahar, etc., we all knew well before the loss of lives that there would be losses and now it’s far from really over. Amazing that you never had to step foot in country to know this as well. Just that obvious. Be safe on whatever “assignment” you’re on as it’s apparent some higher echelons of leadership in various positions all the way to the top does not have your back aside from those right next to you. Watch your tails Cowboys.

[Sim]

 

[FLEA]

42 minutes ago, Sim said:

 

That was powerful and also very accurate. I've been working for weeks trying to get people who deserve to get out of Afghanistan, out of Afghanistan. There was absolutely no clear method for how a person gets onto HKIA other than winning the fricken lottery. Unless you had the number to someone who was in country, on the ground, and had access to the gate, your people were hosed no matter how great their case. Once we started sending planes back with empty seats, that was telling of how much the system had failed. Say nothing of the C-17 that departed the last day stocked full of supplies like paper towels and napkins, rather than human beings. I want to believe this is a success story guys. But you don't get to sink the titanic and then brag about how many life boats you have. There are THOUSANDS of vulnerable Afghans still in country who may be killed any day now. How in the world will anyone ever trust the USG again? 

Edited September 1, 2021 by FLEA

[gearhog]

Ridiculous.

This is how you say: "We're going to pay hefty ransom" without saying "We're going to pay a hefty ransom."

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by torqued

[Lockjaw]

31 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Once we started sending planes back with empty seats, that was telling of how much the system had failed. Say nothing of the C-17 that departed the last day stocked full of supplies like paper towels and napkins, rather than human beings. I want to believe this is a success story guys. But you don't get to sink the titanic and then brag about how many life boats you have.

Damn...bless you, man. 

And I've heard that lifeboat comparison this week as well. 

Couple of the Marines at the gates described it as "playing God," some of the Brit paras said the experience was worse than tours in Helmand in some ways. Can't even imagine.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Lockjaw
Grammarz

[Chuck17]

On 8/30/2021 at 8:55 PM, HeloDude said:

 

”Freedom for me, but not for thee”

It’s the one true American political tradition…

Chuck

[Beaker16]

15 hours ago, Tonka said:

Learning to fly their “new” C-130

I can say with high confidence they're not going to fly again, let alone be moved from their current spot. 

[slc]

1 hour ago, Chef16 said:

I can say with high confidence they're not going to fly again, let alone be moved from their current spot. 

I heard they're hiring Nav's......

[DUNBAR]

It's all so unbelievable it's just beyond words.

Something very very weird is going on in Washington, and it's giving me the heebie jeebies.

[Waingro]

45 minutes ago, DUNBAR said:

It's all so unbelievable it's just beyond words.

Something very very weird is going on in Washington, and it's giving me the heebie jeebies.

Weird how? When we freed the leader of the Taliban, then invited them to Camp David to discuss the transfer, you were expecting some other outcome? Without dumping tens of thousands back into Afghanistan, to augment the 2,500 we started the year with, I don't see that this was going to end any other way.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Yeah.  And betrayal from Washington is hardly a new thing. 

[Doc]

[DUNBAR]

1 hour ago, Waingro said:

Weird how? When we freed the leader of the Taliban, then invited them to Camp David to discuss the transfer, you were expecting some other outcome? Without dumping tens of thousands back into Afghanistan, to augment the 2,500 we started the year with, I don't see that this was going to end any other way.

I find it weird that we accept the fact that we're allegedly the world hyperpower, and the Taliban are the ones giving all the orders.

I find it weird that the withdrawal was planned in such an appallingly catastrophic fashion.

I find it weird that the administration was absolutely obsessed with meeting some meaningless deadline.

I find it weird that no one can seem to nail down how many Americans were in Afghanistan, how many were airlifted, and how many were truly left behind.

I find it weird that the Taliban allegedly offered us the opportunity to police and secure Kabul, and we said, "No thanks."

I find it weird that leaving any number of Americans behind is acceptable to this administration.

I find it weird that so little effort was made to disable or destroy the military hardware left behind.

I find it weird that we seemingly made so little effort to prioritize American evacuees ahead of Afghanis.

I find it weird that a presidential administration could survive this calamity.  

I find it weird that the administration claims they had no inkling the AFG government would collapse in this manner, but that is constantly being proven false.

I find it weird that the President told the press we are not leaving until every American who wants to leave is airlifted, and today...meh.  What can you do?  Americans are stranded overseas all the time.

I find it weird (no offense meant) that people like you think there is nothing weird about all of this.

Edited September 1, 2021 by DUNBAR

[HeyEng]

30 minutes ago, Doc said:

You would think the way Big Blue pushed us to wear that reflective belt and make sure our PT shirt was tucked in and free of sweat stains was the only way to victory!

[GrndPndr]

It will be interesting to see how fast we recognize these twelfth-century sycophants as a legitimate state.

[gearhog]

14 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Interesting how?  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, if he gets rolled up trying some delusional one man Hollywood style "rescue mission" (without any military background whatsoever, according to the article) then I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't risk any of our guys' lives to get him back.  All decisions have consequences.

I’ve never heard of this guy before, but those are some harsh words considering the number of private rescue missions currently being conducted. Just this morning, I responded to a request seeking current and qualified 737 pilot for some sort of rescue op. If called, I’ll be out the door before the call ends.

Personally, I kind of admire someone willing to take a risk to rescue fellow Americans who were abandoned, even if unsuccessful. I doubt counting on anyone else to come to his rescue was part of the calculus. 

Just a different opinion, man.

EDIT:?Dunbar  nailed it. What he said.

Edited September 1, 2021 by torqued

[Waingro]

18 minutes ago, DUNBAR said:

I find it weird (no offense meant) that people like you think there is nothing weird about all of this.

Oh, I'm not arguing this was well executed. It's just that I'm more surprised that people are coming out of the woodwork to feign horror about this, when they were just fine with us freeing the leader of the Taliban and then inviting them to Camp David for cookies. We more or less agreed to hand the country over - poorly executed, yes, but where was the pearl clutching when we set this in motion well over a year ago?

[Waingro]

6 minutes ago, GrndPndr said:

It will be interesting to see how fast we recognize these twelfth-century sycophants as a legitimate state.

That was already agreed upon with the last administration, and it looks as though that will be our foreign policy going forward as well. So, about that fast.

[HeloDude]

Just now, Waingro said:

That was already agreed upon with the last administration, and it looks as though that will be our foreign policy going forward as well. So, about that fast.

Strange how Biden claims he had to go forward with the “previous agreement” from the last administration…and yet at the same time has changed many other agreements/policies set by the last administration…it’s almost as if it’s all political, on both sides.  
 

But since Biden is in charge, Biden owns it since he could have went a number of different ways.  This is coming from someone who supported the pullout, just not the horrible execution.  
 

 

 

[Tank]

[ecugringo]

Any truth to the 100+ service dogs that were abandoned?

[jazzdude]

Any truth to the 100+ service dogs that were abandoned?

They weren't military working dogs, but rather dogs from an non-profit animal shelter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/01/dogs-kabul-airport/

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/25/1030227075/afghanistan-airlift-evacuation-animal-rescue

[DUNBAR]

48 minutes ago, Waingro said:

Oh, I'm not arguing this was well executed. It's just that I'm more surprised that people are coming out of the woodwork to feign horror about this, when they were just fine with us freeing the leader of the Taliban and then inviting them to Camp David for cookies. We more or less agreed to hand the country over - poorly executed, yes, but where was the pearl clutching when we set this in motion well over a year ago?

Point taken.  I'm not trying to be adversarial; you are correct that this was always going to be a horrific band-aid to tear off.  But holy sh!t.  This did not have to be like this.

[DirkDiggler]

5 hours ago, DUNBAR said:

I find it weird that we accept the fact that we're allegedly the world hyperpower, and the Taliban are the ones giving all the orders.

I find it weird that the withdrawal was planned in such an appallingly catastrophic fashion.

I find it weird that the administration was absolutely obsessed with meeting some meaningless deadline.

I find it weird that no one can seem to nail down how many Americans were in Afghanistan, how many were airlifted, and how many were truly left behind.

I find it weird that the Taliban allegedly offered us the opportunity to police and secure Kabul, and we said, "No thanks."

I find it weird that leaving any number of Americans behind is acceptable to this administration.

I find it weird that so little effort was made to disable or destroy the military hardware left behind.

I find it weird that we seemingly made so little effort to prioritize American evacuees ahead of Afghanis.

I find it weird that a presidential administration could survive this calamity.  

I find it weird that the administration claims they had no inkling the AFG government would collapse in this manner, but that is constantly being proven false.

I find it weird that the President told the press we are not leaving until every American who wants to leave is airlifted, and today...meh.  What can you do?  Americans are stranded overseas all the time.

I find it weird (no offense meant) that people like you think there is nothing weird about all of this.

I find it weird that we accept the fact that we're allegedly the world hyperpower, and the Taliban are the ones giving all the orders.

  If we're being honest, this hasn't been the case for the last 10-15 years.  Whether you use the term unipolar or "sole remaining superpower (haven't heard the term hyperpower used before) the US is no longer the single most dominant country across the entire globe anymore.  Spending 20 years pissing away our blood, sweat, and treasure in places like Afghanistan and Iraq hasn't helped matters on this front at all (China has caught up and even surpassed us in many ways).  Whether you agree with it or not, the USA decided to accept a negotiated settlement to get out of this war.  The Taliban won (terrible on the tongue to say but true) and as such they're getting to dictate certain things.  

I find it weird that the withdrawal was planned in such an appallingly catastrophic fashion.

  Agreed, though the really difficult part for me to accept is how CENTCOM seemed so unprepared.  CENTOM's staff is enormous, especially compared to some other COCOMs.  CENTCOM also has more given/delegated authorities than any other COCOM.  How did they not adequately plan for this and not see it coming.  Did we as a military refuse to believe that Afghanistan would fall so quickly?  After 10-15 years of "just give us another year, we'll turn the tide" etc etc, were we truly unable to see that the thing we invested 20 years worth of effort in would collapse so quickly?   

I find it weird that the administration was absolutely obsessed with meeting some meaningless deadline.

  Agreed, the arbitrary withdrawal date unfortunately accelerated the dicknannagans seen at the end. 

I find it weird that no one can seem to nail down how many Americans were in Afghanistan, how many were airlifted, and how many were truly left behind.

  This doesn't surprise me at all.  Ever been part of a NEO?  It's actually very difficult for State to track all the American citizens present in any country all the time.  If they don't register with the Embassy and aren't part of any US government presence it's pretty hard to keep track of all American's in any country, especially a third world, limited comms shithole like Afghanistan that's collapsing on itself.  Any number the US government comes up with is unfortunately always going to have a median associated with it.

I find it weird that the Taliban allegedly offered us the opportunity to police and secure Kabul, and we said, "No thanks."

  I don't find this weird at all (I'm also honestly skeptical that this is even true).  I'm not a ground guy, but how many troops do you think it would take to secure a city the size of Kabul?  It took 5,000 just to secure the airport.  20-40,000 is my guess.  How long would it take us to get that many troops in place.  Sure isn't going to happen in a couple days.  And then what?  The Afghan government had already collapsed and fled.  What are we going to do once our people are out?  Try to install a new government?  Give the keys to the Taliban?  Continue to secure a large city where all the government workers are streaming for the exit while a massive humanitarian crisis brews?  And what level of casualties would we have been willing to accept to make that happen?      

I find it weird that leaving any number of Americans behind is acceptable to this administration.

  Agreed, though see my 4th comment above.  There was probably always still going to be some American still on the ground after the last C-17 was wheels up.  Additionally, this isn't the first time Americans have been left behind in a conflict and, also unfortunately, probably won't be the last.

I find it weird that so little effort was made to disable or destroy the military hardware left behind.

  I don't find this weird.  We de-mil'ed the big ticket stuff (helicopters. airplanes) that were still in our control.  Stuff they captured after the ANA folded like HUMMVEEs, MRAPs, the one UH-60 will be broken down and unserviceable within a year or sooner (my Army friends have gotten some good chuckles out of them parading that stuff around).  Another 20,000 captured M-4s isn't going make the Taliban more or less capable.  And honestly what was/is the alternative?  Tank plink every captured vehicle, potentially inside cities surrounded by civilians?  Keep the war going to destroy material that won't be usable soon anyway?  The only way to truly make sure nothing was left to the Taliban would have been to either keep the war going or to never equip the ANA in the first place.   

I find it weird that we seemingly made so little effort to prioritize American evacuees ahead of Afghanis.

  Agreed, though I think some of the efforts to retrieve Americans was kept out the media/conducted clandestinely.  BLUF is it was a planning failure and could/should have been done better. 

I find it weird that a presidential administration could survive this calamity.

  This has been one of the oddest talking points I've seen kicked around in the media and on social media since this withdrawal started going pear shaped.  No US presidential administration has collapsed/resigned for a large military failure, attack, or loss of life since the transformation of the US into a global power.  FDR didn't resign after Pearl Harbor.  Truman didn't resign after the US forces in Korea were almost wiped out around Busan.  JFK didn't resign after the Bay of Pigs.  Ford didn't resign after Saigon and the SS Mayaguez incident (US Marines were left behind there).  Carter didn't resign after Desert One.  Reagan didn't resign after the Beirut barracks bombing.  Clinton didn't resign after Mogadishu.  Bush didn't resign after 9-11.  Obama didn't resign after Benegazi.  Trump didn't resign after Niger (admittedly those last two were smaller in scope, loss of life, and consequences on the world stage then some of the others I mentioned).  BLUF is that there's a way things like this have been handled by the American people and government the past 75 years; its every four years at the ballot box.        

I find it weird that the administration claims they had no inkling the AFG government would collapse in this manner, but that is constantly being proven false.

  Agreed.  Once again, were we truly unable to admit we had failed.  Were we lying to ourselves?

I find it weird that the President told the press we are not leaving until every American who wants to leave is airlifted, and today...meh.  What can you do?  Americans are stranded overseas all the time.

  Agreed, the flip-flopping of positions on this has been wrong and is bad.

I find it weird (no offense meant) that people like you think there is nothing weird about all of this.

  As terrible as the last couple weeks have been, and as hard as it's been for me personally to start thinking about the fact that I'm going to be a veteran of a lost war, I don't think the sky is falling.  Our allies aren't magically going to align themselves with Russia or China.  The US economy isn't going to collapse from this loss.  The US isn't going to fall into civil war or revolution over this.  I've said it previously in this thread, moving forward, we (the US military) need to conduct a brutal debrief and maybe grow a generation of officers that will do everything in their collective power to stop us from ever getting involved in a war like this again.

[O Face]

2 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

I find it weird that a presidential administration could survive this calamity.

  This has been one of the oddest talking points I've seen kicked around in the media and on social media since this withdrawal started going pear shaped.  No US presidential administration has collapsed/resigned for a large military failure, attack, or loss of life since the transformation of the US into a global power.  FDR didn't resign after Pearl Harbor.  Truman didn't resign after the US forces in Korea were almost wiped out around Busan.  JFK didn't resign after the Bay of Pigs.  Ford didn't resign after Saigon and the SS Mayaguez incident (US Marines were left behind there).  Carter didn't resign after Desert One.  Reagan didn't resign after the Beirut barracks bombing.  Clinton didn't resign after Mogadishu.  Bush didn't resign after 9-11.  Obama didn't resign after Benegazi.  Trump didn't resign after Niger (admittedly those last two were smaller in scope, loss of life, and consequences on the world stage then some of the others I mentioned).  BLUF is that there's a way things like this have been handled by the American people and government the past 75 years; its every four years at the ballot box.      

Great back and forth discussion here with some excellent historical perspective. This current administration may not throw in the towel, but I will be very surprised if there isn’t  a blood letting militarily. Nearly all of the examples given above had senior leaders get the axe or fall on their sword. I wonder how long until we see something similar?