Finally done in Afghanistan?

[Lawman]

This is what the CRG and STS career fields are for.  Bonus, both carry with them organic security capes.  If CENTCOM and DOD aren’t run by a bunch of idiots we would’ve figured this out before the withdrawal went south. 

If you’re talking about those silly guys who always demand on bringing dirt bikes to blast around the MSS site and act like traffic cops, I’ve yet to see them actually improve ground security and operations at any MSS they participated in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FLEA]

7 minutes ago, Lawman said:

If you’re talking about those silly guys who always demand on bringing dirt bikes to blast around the MSS site and act like traffic cops, I’ve yet to see them actually improve ground security and operations at any MSS they participated in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Depends on the situation. Neither CRG or STS are an airfield seizure force. The expectation is that someone like 75RR would secure the field in advance and there would be a phased swap out. STS is likely attached to 75RR and would bring in the initial airlift that contains the CRG, or direct them to airdrop. But there is very specific phased force packaging for airfield standup. Recommend you read about PRIME BEEF on SIPR. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by FLEA

[fire4effect]

I was wondering when this would happen. This could take it to a whole new level.

Multiple planes are ready to take U.S. citizens and green card holders out of Afghanistan — but the Taliban won't let them leave, officials say - CBS News

 

[ClearedHot]

How far we have fallen when we can't seize an airfield without blinking.

I can't even remember how many nights I sat over the airfield killing AAA pieces while the cud chewers flailed in the Chutes and Ladders trying to work timing and spacing.  Even back then we could still seize an airfield while the E's burned a weezer blowing smoke out the 105MM and the EWO distracted by the latest edition of Penthouse.

[jazzdude]

Part of the issue is that all the training and exercises seem to focus on day 1 of the fight; kicking in the door and seizing the airfield. There seems to be very little thought into large scale exfil/retrograde in an at best unstable/degrading situation or at worst a hostile situation.

I'm sure our SOF forces train to similar situations, as does our personnel recovery forces, but those are usually small scale efforts, and not retrograding a large number of people/equipment.

It seems planners can hammer out aircraft flow, parking, etc, but it seems the ground piece gets forgotten about: you need people not just for security, but to wrangle the people and equipment being retrograded, and once those people are pulled back, your ability to maintain any real sense of order in loading jets decreases significantly. In other words, there needs to be a phased logistics plan for who leaves when, maybe with some to level contingency adjustments.

[disgruntledemployee]

8 minutes ago, fire4effect said:

I was wondering when this would happen. This could take it to a whole new level.

Multiple planes are ready to take U.S. citizens and green card holders out of Afghanistan — but the Taliban won't let them leave, officials say - CBS News

 

Ah, hostages for negotiations.  How much?

[disgruntledemployee]

6 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

Part of the issue is that all the training and exercises seem to focus on day 1 of the fight; kicking in the door and seizing the airfield. There seems to be very little thought into large scale exfil/retrograde in an at best unstable/degrading situation or at worst a hostile situation.

I'm sure our SOF forces train to similar situations, as does our personnel recovery forces, but those are usually small scale efforts, and not retrograding a large number of people/equipment.

It seems planners can hammer out aircraft flow, parking, etc, but it seems the ground piece gets forgotten about: you need people not just for security, but to wrangle the people and equipment being retrograded, and once those people are pulled back, your ability to maintain any real sense of order in loading jets decreases significantly. In other words, there needs to be a phased logistics plan for who leaves when, maybe with some to level contingency adjustments.

Like a Combat Aerial Port.  With Combat State Dept Reps for the people verification.

PS. I learned that putting "Combat" in front of words makes it sound more capable.  That and "Combat Showers" means you're in "Combat Conditions" and thus qualify for Combat Pay.

[BashiChuni]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

Depends on the situation. Neither CRG or STS are an airfield seizure force. The expectation is that someone like 75RR would secure the field in advance and there would be a phased swap out. STS is likely attached to 75RR and would bring in the initial airlift that contains the CRG, or direct them to airdrop. But there is very specific phased force packaging for airfield standup. Recommend you read about PRIME BEEF on SIPR. 

PRIME BEEEEEEEEFFFFFFFFFFF

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, disgruntledemployee said:

Like a Combat Aerial Port.  With Combat State Dept Reps for the people verification.

PS. I learned that putting "Combat" in front of words makes it sound more capable.  That and "Combat Showers" means you're in "Combat Conditions" and thus qualify for Combat Pay.

Anything that has “combat” in front of it makes me roll my eyes

[ClearedHot]

3 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Anything that has “combat” in front of it makes me roll my eyes

Combat Talon...

[HeloDude]

Just now, ClearedHot said:

Combat Talon...

Combat Rescue Helicopter…because only using the word “Rescue” would be a disservice.

[Danger41]

1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

Part of the issue is that all the training and exercises seem to focus on day 1 of the fight; kicking in the door and seizing the airfield. There seems to be very little thought into large scale exfil/retrograde in an at best unstable/degrading situation or at worst a hostile situation.

I'm sure our SOF forces train to similar situations, as does our personnel recovery forces, but those are usually small scale efforts, and not retrograding a large number of people/equipment.

It seems planners can hammer out aircraft flow, parking, etc, but it seems the ground piece gets forgotten about: you need people not just for security, but to wrangle the people and equipment being retrograded, and once those people are pulled back, your ability to maintain any real sense of order in loading jets decreases significantly. In other words, there needs to be a phased logistics plan for who leaves when, maybe with some to level contingency adjustments.

10000% shack. You’re completely right about the long term phased planning. And then add at least 20% to every quantifiable metric (especially time). 
 

The other thing that absolutely drives me bananas with air power experts is that when the ground force commander says something, they just go “okay”. NO! Offer the realistic answer and tell the truth. The GFC is just some guy the same way we all are and they aren’t infallible.
 

It’s almost like we’ve got people that are afraid to tell ground folks they can’t do something. There’s a difference between a Ranger digging deep to keep moving through physical exhaustion to reach an objective and an airplane running out of gas.

Flip side of that is find a way to “yes” and don’t hide behind interpretive rules to say no to everything. If there’s a T-3 waiver needed for mission accomplishment and you can do it, get that guy on the phone and get it waived.

Sorry for the rant. This topic gets under my skin.

[fire4effect]

7 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

Ah, hostages for negotiations.  How much?

Good question. Unfortunately I suspect it will a substantial amount negotiated under the table and kept from the taxpayers by our spineless leadership who left them there in the first place. 

[gearhog]

Remember that drone strike a couple days after the fall of HKIA? (Page 30 of this thread)

Embarassing. How much can you lie, fcuk up, and fail as the CJCS and still keep your job?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/world/asia/us-air-strike-drone-kabul-afghanistan-isis.html

The New York Times:

Since the strike, U.S. military officials justified their actions by citing an even larger blast that took place afterward.

“Because there were secondary explosions, there is a reasonable conclusion to be made that there was explosives in that vehicle,” the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark A. Milley, said last week.

But an examination of the scene of the strike, conducted by the Times visual investigations team and a Times reporter the morning afterward, and followed up with a second visit four days later, found no evidence of a second, more powerful explosion.

Experts who examined photos and videos pointed out that, although there was clear evidence of a missile strike and subsequent vehicle fire, there were no collapsed or blown-out walls, no destroyed vegetation, and only one dent in the entrance gate, indicating a single shock wave.

“It seriously questions the credibility of the intelligence or technology utilized to determine this was a legitimate target,” said Chris Cobb-Smith, a British Army veteran and security consultant.

While the U.S. military has so far acknowledged only three civilian casualties, Mr. Ahmadi’s relatives said that 10 members of their family, including seven children, were killed in the strike: Mr. Ahmadi and three of his children, Zamir, 20, Faisal, 16, and Farzad, 10; Mr. Ahmadi’s cousin Naser, 30; three of Romal’s children, Arwin, 7, Benyamin, 6, and Hayat, 2; and two 3-year-old girls, Malika and Somaya.

 

[busdriver]

Some of you guys are hell bent on demanding someone's head.  Doesn't seem to matter who however....

Do you think the Generals were the ones saying "yep that's a secondary, good strike" or that maybe it was some folks sitting in a box?  or imagery analysts?  or nerds on a staff?  

Those at the top can be ultimately responsible, but the guillotine won't fix any of the problems.

[Breckey]

4 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Some of you guys are hell bent on demanding someone's head.  Doesn't seem to matter who however....

Do you think the Generals were the ones saying "yep that's a secondary, good strike" or that maybe it was some folks sitting in a box?  or imagery analysts?  or nerds on a staff?  

Those at the top can be ultimately responsible, but the guillotine won't fix any of the problems.

The video of the strike is on SIPR as well for the armchair quarterbacks to made their own post-strike BDA.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, torqued said:

Remember that drone strike a couple days after the fall of HKIA? (Page 30 of this thread)

Embarassing. How much can you lie, fcuk up, and fail as the CJCS and still keep your job?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/world/asia/us-air-strike-drone-kabul-afghanistan-isis.html

The New York Times:

Since the strike, U.S. military officials justified their actions by citing an even larger blast that took place afterward.

“Because there were secondary explosions, there is a reasonable conclusion to be made that there was explosives in that vehicle,” the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark A. Milley, said last week.

But an examination of the scene of the strike, conducted by the Times visual investigations team and a Times reporter the morning afterward, and followed up with a second visit four days later, found no evidence of a second, more powerful explosion.

Experts who examined photos and videos pointed out that, although there was clear evidence of a missile strike and subsequent vehicle fire, there were no collapsed or blown-out walls, no destroyed vegetation, and only one dent in the entrance gate, indicating a single shock wave.

“It seriously questions the credibility of the intelligence or technology utilized to determine this was a legitimate target,” said Chris Cobb-Smith, a British Army veteran and security consultant.

While the U.S. military has so far acknowledged only three civilian casualties, Mr. Ahmadi’s relatives said that 10 members of their family, including seven children, were killed in the strike: Mr. Ahmadi and three of his children, Zamir, 20, Faisal, 16, and Farzad, 10; Mr. Ahmadi’s cousin Naser, 30; three of Romal’s children, Arwin, 7, Benyamin, 6, and Hayat, 2; and two 3-year-old girls, Malika and Somaya.

 

Disgusting of the federal government to do that. I wonder how many more fervent haters of the U.S. regime they just made by incinerating all those humans.

[Negatory]

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

Some of you guys are hell bent on demanding someone's head.  Doesn't seem to matter who however....

Do you think the Generals were the ones saying "yep that's a secondary, good strike" or that maybe it was some folks sitting in a box?  or imagery analysts?  or nerds on a staff?  

Those at the top can be ultimately responsible, but the guillotine won't fix any of the problems.

Somebody should be held responsible, though. Probably the CFACC who signs off on those targets. Why not? Or if it was a clear intelligence failure, hold them responsible. I guarantee the ROE is to limit CIVCAS to the minimum extent practical - let's get a debrief on what went wrong. The American people deserve it.

Never holding leadership accountable will result in generals that skirt responsibility and never take blame for anything that goes wrong - what we have right now.

[busdriver]

19 minutes ago, Negatory said:

Somebody should be held responsible, though. ......

let's get a debrief on what went wrong. The American people deserve it.

Never holding leadership accountable will result in generals that skirt responsibility

You don't know who signed off on the strike, or what the approval level was, or what the ROE was, or what the intel was, or anything really.  You're looking at an outcome and demanding... something. 

What, a public debrief and root cause analysis?  

War is messy, innocent people die, mistakes are made, people do horrible things.  This has always been.  There is no fancy all knowing technology that will make it something else.  There will never be a process that will satisfy a libertarian sense of due process prior to engagements.  It will always be fucking terrible.  The answer is to not engage in it when it isn't absolutely necessary.

I'm not saying accountability and transparency isn't important, or that simple admission that a mistake was made (when a mistake was made) isn't the ethical thing to do.  I'm saying the urge to cut off people's heads says something about the people demanding it as much as the act that draws the mob's ire.

[Negatory]

19 minutes ago, busdriver said:

You don't know who signed off on the strike, or what the approval level was, or what the ROE was, or what the intel was, or anything really.  You're looking at an outcome and demanding... something. 

What, a public debrief and root cause analysis?  

War is messy, innocent people die, mistakes are made, people do horrible things.  This has always been.  There is no fancy all knowing technology that will make it something else.  There will never be a process that will satisfy a libertarian sense of due process prior to engagements.  It will always be fucking terrible.  The answer is to not engage in it when it isn't absolutely necessary.

I'm not saying accountability and transparency isn't important, or that simple admission that a mistake was made (when a mistake was made) isn't the ethical thing to do.  I'm saying the urge to cut off people's heads says something about the people demanding it as much as the act that draws the mob's ire.

I know what the approval level has been the last 10 years - the CFACC. Do you have any reason to believe it’s different? If anything, it might be higher based on the politics, but I doubt it.

I also have intimate knowledge of standard ROE over the last decade, as do probably a lot of people on here - maybe even you.

Also, being in the targeting cell at the CAOC in the last 5 years should give me some credibility to understanding the process of how intelligence is supposed to go to targeting to make an informed risk based decision.

There is a difference between a standard strike and one that is primarily political, I.e. this one. It’s similar to the multiple Syria strike packages ordered by Obama and Trump. This is a strike while we’re trying to literally withdraw from a theater. This should 100% not escalate our retreat - should it not be held to a higher standard?

I believe that there is a better place we can get to than to never hold the military responsible because “war is messy.” And that is coming from someone who has prosecuted attacks with multiple CIVCAS. Some of those were good and could be argued to be “worth it.” But some of them were f’d and should have had someone be accountable.

To complete the argument, people’s heads should be cut off occasionally when things get fd. They should have been for the last 20 years.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Negatory

[gearhog]

4 hours ago, busdriver said:

Some of you guys are hell bent on demanding someone's head.  Doesn't seem to matter who however....

Do you think the Generals were the ones saying "yep that's a secondary, good strike" or that maybe it was some folks sitting in a box?  or imagery analysts?  or nerds on a staff?  

Those at the top can be ultimately responsible, but the guillotine won't fix any of the problems.

Doesn't matter who? What? I literally named the name of one person. Why? Because, in the article, Gen Milley is quoted as saying... himself...that, "“Because there were secondary explosions, there is a reasonable conclusion to be made that there was explosives in that vehicle.”

So, yes, I do think "the Generals" were one ones saying "yep, that's a secondary, good strike" because.... that is, in fact, what the General said according to the words in quotation marks in the article.

"Those at the top can be ultimately responsible." I don't understand who you disagree with. Me or yourself?

I'm not asking for a guillotine. If you're the guy in charge during what might be the biggest military embarrassment in our history, and then immediately follow it up with another fukup two days later...maybe you should go ahead take that promotion to board member at a top tier defense contractor.

 

 

 

[busdriver]

56 minutes ago, Negatory said:

Do you have any reason to believe it’s different? 

I believe that there is a better place we can get to than to never hold the military responsible 

Any reason to believe that the process under a different administration, under a completely different operational scenario, after a massive explosion killed a bunch of people in a very public way?    -  I don't know.

Big public failures like the VBIED at Abbey gate have resulted in relaxed ROE before (Blade 11).  I would imagine the intel sources on the ground were a bit constrained as compared to a couple years ago.  Does another VBIED escalate our withdraw more or less than a bad hellfire?  What is the political/public/strategic impact of another attack and more dead Marines?  Does that make it more likely that the NCA would end up pressured to "do something?"

I do think that the operations surrounding the evacuation were not business as usual.

 

For what it's worth I get the anger, I've picked up a lot of broken people there.

[LookieRookie]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

Any reason to believe that the process under a different administration, under a completely different operational scenario, after a massive explosion killed a bunch of people in a very public way?    -  I don't know.

Big public failures like the VBIED at Abbey gate have resulted in relaxed ROE before (Blade 11).  I would imagine the intel sources on the ground were a bit constrained as compared to a couple years ago.  Does another VBIED escalate our withdraw more or less than a bad hellfire?  What is the political/public/strategic impact of another attack and more dead Marines?  Does that make it more likely that the NCA would end up pressured to "do something?"

I do think that the operations surrounding the evacuation were not business as usual.

 

For what it's worth I get the anger, I've picked up a lot of broken people there.

What does that have to do with trying to cover it up after the fact?

[busdriver]

3 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

What does that have to do with trying to cover it up after the fact?

Nothing, but that wasn't what I or Negatory were talking about.  Pay attention.

Are they covering it up yet?  Have we crossed that line?  Beats me.  News moves faster than the bureaucracy.  

Edited September 12, 2021 by busdriver

[gearhog]

Completely unrelated.

The Navy FIRES offensive coordinator for LOSING to the Air Force.

They can't do that, can they?

https://theathletic.com/news/navy-fires-longtime-offensive-coordinator-ivin-jasper-after-0-2-start-reports/SJ7wv1p3OpUn