Finally done in Afghanistan?

[hindsight2020]

Update on the the Scheller self-immolation. His allocutions pretty much cover the fly-bys. 

 

 

[Blue]

Interesting interview with Gates.  That 90 second clip was impressive.  In that short snippet, he managed to spread the blame for the Afghanistan withdrawal debacle to both Trump and Biden.  Cause, you know, spread the blame around enough, eventually it looks like it's no ones fault.

He doesn't have a recent book release he's pushing, so one has to wonder why he's doing this interview now.  It's hard not to assume he's on a push to define and burnish his reputation, now that we're closing the book on Afghanistan, a conflict that defined a such a large chunk of his professional career.  Old bureaucrat, pushing 80, face looking pale and full of liver spots.  Trying to make sure the "record is straight" on what he's done, and why he wasn't in the wrong.  Seems to be a common thing; I remember Donald Rumsfeld doing something similar in the years before his death (one 2016 interview here with Stephen Colbert).  George W. Bush seems to be making similar rounds lately as well.

[disgruntledemployee]

When history books will include your name on this topic, maybe directing the record is in the interests of your family name and rep.  Assholes.

How we got here is part of the story, but I will not forgive the fucking ineptitude of the exit.  Zero excuses allowed, less that zero accountability observed.

 

Fucking out

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

How we got here is part of the story, but I will not forgive the fucking ineptitude of the exit.  

Those on the ground on day last did the best they could.  Situation totally fucked.  Blame lies with every leader who let us keep going without an obtainable objective for years.

Edited October 16, 2021 by tac airlifter

[Majestik Møøse]

The blame lies with several misunderstandings. You cannot “regime change” for a population unless they already really want to or you plan on never leaving. If they’re dead set against it - or even just indifferent - plan to be there for 50+ years like Germany, Japan, and Korea. And maybe Iraq, who knows. If you don’t want to be somewhere for 50 years, or you don’t think that successive political administrations will have the stomach to stay, either don’t start a war or accomplish your objectives quickly with violence and let the locals decide what to do with their loser leader.

“We need to get out because we’ve been there too long” isn’t correct whatsoever. That’s was poor leadership from our politicians, including Trump.

[Blue]

1 hour ago, Majestik Møøse said:

The blame lies with several misunderstandings. You cannot “regime change” for a population unless they already really want to or you plan on never leaving.

For the record, @hindsight2020 made a pretty good case back on page 9 about how Afghanistan was never about "regime change," or anything of the sort.

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, Blue said:

For the record, @hindsight2020 made a pretty good case back on page 9 about how Afghanistan was never about "regime change," or anything of the sort.

Did anybody ever really know what it was about? After several years of flying sorties over that place & seeing very little substantive change I came to the conclusion that the only reason I, or anyone else was there was for another OPR/EPR bullet. The failure of leadership in Afghanistan lays bare what happens when an organization allows itself to fall victim to blatant and unabashed careerism. The only “accomplishments” we can claim are XXX lbs offloaded, XXX TICs supported, XXX Enemy Combatants (we hope) KIA, etc. etc. NOBODY from the four stars down ever REALLY wanted to tackle the questions of what we were doing there or what the end game was. Just do your tour, write your bullets, get your promotions, retire and let somebody else deal with the hard questions. I have no dog in the fight anymore, but as Joe Bagadonuts taxpayer (and as someone with many friends continuing to serve……..Thank You. You have a much higher bullshit threshold than I), I truly hope there is a reckoning in the military over the next decade (a la post-Vietnam) & that our future leaders can internalize our failures and codify solutions that will ensure we think a lot harder about how we expend this nation’s treasure in future endeavors. 

[hindsight2020]

3 hours ago, Blue said:

For the record, @hindsight2020 made a pretty good case back on page 9 about how Afghanistan was never about "regime change," or anything of the sort.

 

Indeed, and frankly it's not a particularly complicated case to make, in spite of how quickly people dismiss it just because it bends too "cynical" for their purity-test-centering sensitivities to grapple with.  I won't repeat myself on that account, for the sake of brevity.

[RASH]

Did anybody ever really know what it was about? After several years of flying sorties over that place & seeing very little substantive change I came to the conclusion that the only reason I, or anyone else was there was for another OPR/EPR bullet. The failure of leadership in Afghanistan lays bare what happens when an organization allows itself to fall victim to blatant and unabashed careerism. The only “accomplishments” we can claim are ### lbs offloaded, ### TICs supported, ### Enemy Combatants (we hope) KIA, etc. etc. NOBODY from the four stars down ever REALLY wanted to tackle the questions of what we were doing there or what the end game was. Just do your tour, write your bullets, get your promotions, retire and let somebody else deal with the hard questions. I have no dog in the fight anymore, but as Joe Bagadonuts taxpayer (and as someone with many friends continuing to serve……..Thank You. You have a much higher bullshit threshold than I), I truly hope there is a reckoning in the military over the next decade (a la post-Vietnam) & that our future leaders can internalize our failures and codify solutions that will ensure we think a lot harder about how we expend this nation’s treasure in future endeavors. 

They will be “lessons observed” vice “lessons learned” and the big wheel will keep on turnin’


Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network mobile app

[DirkDiggler]

3 hours ago, Prozac said:

Did anybody ever really know what it was about? After several years of flying sorties over that place & seeing very little substantive change I came to the conclusion that the only reason I, or anyone else was there was for another OPR/EPR bullet. The failure of leadership in Afghanistan lays bare what happens when an organization allows itself to fall victim to blatant and unabashed careerism. The only “accomplishments” we can claim are XXX lbs offloaded, XXX TICs supported, XXX Enemy Combatants (we hope) KIA, etc. etc. NOBODY from the four stars down ever REALLY wanted to tackle the questions of what we were doing there or what the end game was. Just do your tour, write your bullets, get your promotions, retire and let somebody else deal with the hard questions. I have no dog in the fight anymore, but as Joe Bagadonuts taxpayer (and as someone with many friends continuing to serve……..Thank You. You have a much higher bullshit threshold than I), I truly hope there is a reckoning in the military over the next decade (a la post-Vietnam) & that our future leaders can internalize our failures and codify solutions that will ensure we think a lot harder about how we expend this nation’s treasure in future endeavors. 

If you get a chance, read The Fighters by CJ Chivers.  Its a great book, just a collection of stories from line guys who served in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Its a very tough read at times and doesn't have an overall point or agenda but definitely worth the read.  One of the stories centers around a young infantry private serving in the Korengal; he and his buddies summed up the reason for their year long deployment as "we're here because we're here".  Basically how I felt about my last tour in the 'Stan. 

[Prozac]

2 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

If you get a chance, read The Fighters by CJ Chivers.  Its a great book, just a collection of stories from line guys who served in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Its a very tough read at times and doesn't have an overall point or agenda but definitely worth the read.  One of the stories centers around a young infantry private serving in the Korengal; he and his buddies summed up the reason for their year long deployment as "we're here because we're here".  Basically how I felt about my last tour in the 'Stan. 

You’re not the first to recommend that to me. On my list for sure. 

[Beaker16]

On 10/16/2021 at 6:42 PM, DirkDiggler said:

"we're here because we're here"

This eerily summarized my stint there. My unit was there middle of July through the end. Day to day was extremely frustrating at best. I (along with all my friends that were there) are still working through with what we experienced, and there is no singular answer to any of the problems we saw, or that have been noted throughout this thread. 

[ClearedHot]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:44 PM, Prozac said:

You’re not the first to recommend that to me. On my list for sure. 

Add the documentary Restrepo

[slc]

And "The Hardest Place: Americans Adrift in Afghanistan's Pech Valley"

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

Add the documentary Restrepo

This one was good. 

[M2]

On 10/16/2021 at 2:06 PM, Prozac said:

Did anybody ever really know what it was about? 

It was simply about occupation.  As longer we sat there, the longer the Taliban insurgency was kept somewhat in check.  

We were never going to change the inevitable, I am pretty sure everyone realized Afghanistan wasn't "a problem to be solved but a fact to be endured."

It wasn't an unexpected ending.  Just ask the Soviet Union...but look what happened to them shortly after they left! 

[dream big]

9 hours ago, M2 said:

It was simply about occupation.  As longer we sat there, the longer the Taliban insurgency was kept somewhat in check.  

We were never going to change the inevitable, I am pretty sure everyone realized Afghanistan wasn't "a problem to be solved but a fact to be endured."

It wasn't an unexpected ending.  Just ask the Soviet Union...but look what happened to them shortly after they left! 

How we let administration after administration get after these same mistakes is beyond me.  I would really like to see a Tulsi/Crenshaw or Vice versa ticket or similar individuals who aren’t slave to the establishment come out on top in 2024 and put an end to this madness.  I don’t agree with a lot of Tulsi’s policies but at least she isn’t whipped by the establishment. 
 

For the record, the withdrawal started with Trump and it was 100% time.  Can’t say whether it would’ve gone better or worse under a Trump administration as speculating is purely here say.  We can confidently say it couldn’t have gone much worse during the Biden / Austin / Miley oversight of the final stages of the withdrawal. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by dream big

[Lord Ratner]

11 hours ago, dream big said:

How we let administration after administration get after these same mistakes is beyond me.  I would really like to see a Tulsi/Crenshaw or Vice versa ticket or similar individuals who aren’t slave to the establishment come out on top in 2024 and put an end to this madness.  I don’t agree with a lot of Tulsi’s policies but at least she isn’t whipped by the establishment. 
 

For the record, the withdrawal started with Trump and it was 100% time.  Can’t say whether it would’ve gone better or worse under a Trump administration as speculating is purely here say.  We can confidently say it couldn’t have gone much worse during the Biden / Austin / Miley oversight of the final stages of the withdrawal. 

Crenshaw was completely against the withdrawal, and I agree with him.

 

I like Tulsi, but I get the feeling she's whatever she needs to be to stay relevant.

 

I'd much rather see Nikki Haley with Crenshaw as VP. As a bonus, Haley is a Trump favorite and might just be able to keep him from running again, instead taking the role of "queen maker."

[herkbum]

Crenshaw was completely against the withdrawal, and I agree with him.
 
I like Tulsi, but I get the feeling she's whatever she needs to be to stay relevant.
 
I'd much rather see Nikki Haley with Crenshaw as VP. As a bonus, Haley is a Trump favorite and might just be able to keep him from running again, instead taking the role of "queen maker."

I could see myself supporting this team


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[FLEA]

Posting this because there was a misconception that the majority of people that we evacuated were military age males. That wasn't my experience and certainly isn't what the DoD is reporting. There is a disproportionate amount of adult men, but certainly not majority, and not an army. 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pentagon-almost-half-afghan-evacuees-211802805.html

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Posting this because there was a misconception that the majority of people that we evacuated were military age males. That wasn't my experience and certainly isn't what the DoD is reporting. There is a disproportionate amount of adult men, but certainly not majority, and not an army. 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pentagon-almost-half-afghan-evacuees-211802805.html

The number of military age males that we evacuated was more than sufficient to defend Kabul, but they never tried.  They should have fought, but they ran like cowards.  We owe them nothing, and shouldn’t have evacuated anyone.  I cannot understand any US military member who thinks we “owe” them safety.  They should always have known that fighting for their own country and winning was the only option. 
 

 

[HeloDude]

21 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

I cannot understand any US military member who thinks we “owe” them safety. 

Have you seen what has been happening to our military over the last 10-20 years?  I definitely can understand, unfortunately.  

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Have you seen what has been happening to our military over the last 10-20 years?  I definitely can understand, unfortunately.  

Is it even worth it for patriotic young people to join the military anymore given its track record and admitted goals for the future (hint: not the security of our nation's people)? What's your take?

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, dogfish78 said:

Is it even worth it for patriotic young people to join the military anymore given its track record and admitted goals for the future (hint: not the security of our nation's people)? What's your take?

Simple—I would tell someone to join if they believe it’s in their best interest to do so, and not if it isn’t. 

[tac airlifter]

8 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Have you seen what has been happening to our military over the last 10-20 years?  I definitely can understand, unfortunately.  

To be clear, I was talking about US mil who think we owe safety to former AFG mil and are advocating for their evacuation and resettlement in the US.