Finally done in Afghanistan?

[Day Man]

On 4/18/2024 at 10:36 PM, Prosuper said:

Today watching Tim Pool he informed his audience that You Tube has deleted some of his shows for violating You Tube rules. Who owns You Tube , Google does, what are the two biggest share holders of Google, Vanguard and Blackrock. In fact look at every major media corporation who are the two largest shareholders, the same. They almost have controlling interest in every Fortune 500 corporation. It will be just like 2016 again with alternate media types getting deplatformed for fact checking the mainstream media. Don't even get me started on the on the military industrial complex and who has majority interest.  

https://www.wired.com/story/right-wing-influencer-network-tenet-media-allegedly-spread-russian-disinformation/

[tac airlifter]

On 8/12/2024 at 1:59 PM, polcat said:

I'll second your recommendation on this book. I just finished the read and am not surprised, especially while I was in Kuwait during the NEO. How we let our Afghani comrades behind and the overall sh1tshow of the withdrawal is an understatement of the century.

I have a controversial take on this, so I’ll just ask: did we ever have an obligation to evacuate them?  Did they have an obligation to fight for their own country?  Why did anyone have the impression we would take them to the US if they failed to secure their own country?

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I have a controversial take on this, so I’ll just ask: did we ever have an obligation to evacuate them?  Did they have an obligation to fight for their own country?  Why did anyone have the impression we would take them to the US if they failed to secure their own country?

While I agree with the overall premise, these people volunteered to help us on the promise we would see the war through (like with Japan and Germany). We didn't. 

[dream big]

7 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I have a controversial take on this, so I’ll just ask: did we ever have an obligation to evacuate them?  Did they have an obligation to fight for their own country?  Why did anyone have the impression we would take them to the US if they failed to secure their own country?

No, Yes of course, not sure 

I know this, the whole world watched us F that situation away. If you were an emergent regional power and you saw that, how much faith would you have in the United States?

It’s no wonder you are seeing the rise of coalitions like BRICS. We have become a laughing stock. 
 

 

[Dapper Dan Man]

11 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I have a controversial take on this, so I’ll just ask: did we ever have an obligation to evacuate them?  Did they have an obligation to fight for their own country?  Why did anyone have the impression we would take them to the US if they failed to secure their own country?

The Afghans that the U.S. intended to evacuate were those that held U.S. passports or had a Special Immigrant Visa (SIV), both of which were issued to Afghans that had provided assistance to the U.S. for a number of years at significant personal risk to them and their families. These are people that we definitely had an obligation to evacuate, hell we gave them the documents to come to the U.S.

Of course, that all fell apart when the entire city of Kabul rushed to HKIA. Of the tens of thousands that were NEO’d from Afghanistan, only a portion of that population was the target group of evacuees. Many had no documentation whatsoever (best case had an Afghan passport). We definitely left U.S. passport holders and SIVs behind, while others got a lucky ride out.

[tac airlifter]

9 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

While I agree with the overall premise, these people volunteered to help us on the promise we would see the war through (like with Japan and Germany). We didn't. 

They had an obligation to fight, and they didn't.  There were certainly individual acts of valor and individual members who were invested (one dude was shot down, disguised himself as taliban and walked 90 miles back HKIA and continued fighting; he's now a sensor operator for a firefighting company in Montana).  But in aggregate, GIRoA and the ANA/AAF were not good faith partners. And not just in some ethereal policy level strategic sense, I mean at the member level they'd use A29s to bring honey back from their bee farms in Fayzabad instead of sitting alert for TICs.  And when the city was invaded they left their families to the fates, stole planes and fled.  Can you imagine doing something so cowardly yourself?  Guessing you'd struggle to even comprehend that level of douchebaggary.

34 minutes ago, Dapper Dan Man said:

The Afghans that the U.S. intended to evacuate were those that held U.S. passports or had a Special Immigrant Visa (SIV), both of which were issued to Afghans that had provided assistance to the U.S. for a number of years at significant personal risk to them and their families. These are people that we definitely had an obligation to evacuate, hell we gave them the documents to come to the U.S.

Of course, that all fell apart when the entire city of Kabul rushed to HKIA. Of the tens of thousands that were NEO’d from
Afghanistan, only a portion of that population was the target group of evacuees. Many had no documentation whatsoever (best case had an Afghan passport). We definitely left U.S. passport holders and SIVs behind, while others got a lucky ride out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I typed a long response and realized I remain to angry about the situation to have a constructive discussion. Suffice to say 1- 3% of people evacuated meet your above criteria; the vast majority were criminals (purposefully bussed from prisons by the Taliban to flood the airfield), AWOL military members, government bureaucrats, and randoms.  Imagine watching 50 commandos throw down their weapons and run from 3 guys in a truck and I'm not allowed to shoot the truck... WTF.  Same thing happened in Mosul when ISIS invaded in 2014 (large & well equipped Iraqi army threw away weapons and ran from a minimal enemy force) although this one was more dramatic and at scale.  I feel nothing but contempt for those people, and certainly no obligation to bring them CONUS.
 

[Majestik Møøse]

Can’t figure out why in the hell we didn’t start mining there over the 20 years. Infinite work for the locals. I guess rare earths didn’t seem important enough until recently.

[Stoker]

3 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

  I feel nothing but contempt for those people, and certainly no obligation to bring them CONUS.
 

Could you imagine if we had 80,000 Afghans who fought the Taliban as hard as they fought to get a ride out of Kabul? We'd have won the war in 2005.

[Boomer6]

22 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I have a controversial take on this, so I’ll just ask: did we ever have an obligation to evacuate them?  Did they have an obligation to fight for their own country?  Why did anyone have the impression we would take them to the US if they failed to secure their own country?

If you didn't read the book that was referenced then your take makes sense. It describes specific AFGAN SOF members and interpreters that saved american lives that the US granted SIVs to, groups of young women, as well as US citizens.

Yes, I think we have/had an obligation to help those specific individuals. They were abandoned by their government and their MIL leadership, and by all accounts resisted to their utmost.

How we porked away not prioritizing their evacuation first, or only their evacuation is mind boggling. I definitely agree the knee pad wearers deciding who was allowed on our jets went full retard.

 

[fire4effect]

Anybody see the Taliban parade at Bagram the other day? Why oh why we didn't drop a present on the reviewing stand is beyond me. The official headline would be "Car Bomb Detonates Near Taliban Leadership During Parade" Just to remind them what can happen.

 

[Biff_T]

4 hours ago, fire4effect said:

Anybody see the Taliban parade at Bagram the other day? Why oh why we didn't drop a present on the reviewing stand is beyond me. The official headline would be "Car Bomb Detonates Near Taliban Leadership During Parade" Just to remind them what can happen.

 

My favorite video is the Taliban Blackhawk crashing.    They had that beast flying for a few months until Allah pulled it into the dirt.   

[DirkDiggler]

https://mwi.westpoint.edu/my-war-our-war-the-unfinished-business-of-afghanistan/

  Worth a read.

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

https://mwi.westpoint.edu/my-war-our-war-the-unfinished-business-of-afghanistan/

  Worth a read.

 

 

Enjoyed the read and I hope this dude finds his peace.  I really don't struggle to find meaning for my trips to Afghanistan (all post 2010), it can be summed up rather simply...a complete waste of my time away from family.  Thankfully I'm at peace with that.  Sadly, I think the lessons will be lost in time and the bureaucracy that is our government/military.  If that weren't true, we wouldn't have made the same mistakes as we did in Vietnam.  

[Majestik Møøse]

Should’ve opened up lithium mines and never left

[fire4effect]

3 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

 

Enjoyed the read and I hope this dude finds his peace.  I really don't struggle to find meaning for my trips to Afghanistan (all post 2010), it can be summed up rather simply...a complete waste of my time away from family.  Thankfully I'm at peace with that.  Sadly, I think the lessons will be lost in time and the bureaucracy that is our government/military.  If that weren't true, we wouldn't have made the same mistakes as we did in Vietnam.  

I had a family member (actually two) who was a Viet Nam Veteran. When I was young, I never really comprehended his bitterness to the political establishment for pissing away the mission there. After Aug 2021 I had a much better understanding of his point of view.

[hindsight2020]

7 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

Enjoyed the read and I hope this dude finds his peace.  I really don't struggle to find meaning for my trips to Afghanistan (all post 2010), it can be summed up rather simply...a complete waste of my time away from family.  Thankfully I'm at peace with that. 

I'm on the same boat regarding that point. I never had a problem negotiating that conclusion either, but I have nothing but empathy for those who struggle with what essentially is a public loss of their religion. I lost my OTS class leader to green-on-blue over there. Complete waste of potential; a solid human being and family man at the hands of a distrungled and corrupt local. A true believer my friend was, and a bona fide hero in my eyes. Such Heroism wasted on an unreedemable place, and unreedemable people. I got too many stories of personal corruption and cowardice from that so called allied force, even stateside. Fuck. That. Place. 

In the macro, I never bought into any of that shit. Our self-defense Air Power objectives in that shithole were largely completed by 2003 from where I saw it as a civilian college student. That was a full 3 years before I would even see the inside of a military building. So 9/11 was never a draw for me. Lord knows I disagreed with the second invasion of Iraq from the jump, as I also disagreed with the criminal decision to disband the Iraqi Army (may Paul bremer and his blood-soaked hands burn in hell.... a lackey of Kissinger, this is my shocked face).

Full circle now during my time in, we get tasked to bomb the predictable offspring of that decision 10 years later in Syria, and I'm supposed to put my brain on pause and grab some pom poms? Nah I'm good. It was a waste when my friend Nylander lost his life, and it was still a waste in the Levant as we wrecked strategic heavy bombardment assets over turkey shoot medals with what could have been accomplished with surplus Yak-52s and recreational AR rifles a la Texas hog hunts. Digressing.

In due credit to the Service, it did afford me the opportunity (via ARC) to focus on a role I not only could tolerate for 14+ years, but personally thrive in. I was always an aviatior purist at heart. I've never been fazed by the "flying for the sake of flying" supposed aspersion it's meant to imply, usually uttered by cOmBaT veT true scots fallacy merchants. I've legit enjoyed the amount of upside down flying the service has afforded me as a career instructor. Much bigger sense of personal accomplishment, in what conservatively is circa 500+ individual pilots and still counting. My time in the CAF left me rather unfulfilled by comparison, though that was a combination of poor career timing and luck (BRAC 05 no fighter soup fo you, TAMI-21, then PRP/PACAF babysitter bitch while the bones got all the turkey shoots).

At any rate, my decades spent building something of personal import to me in the training command is a legacy that will outlive both me, as well as all of Uncle sammy's bullshit wars... and I'm here for it. We all have our rationalizations, I won't apologize for mine.

My username checks. Now FUPM. 😄 

 

Edited October 27 by hindsight2020

[slc]

A Decade Later, the Families of 9 Advisers Killed in Afghanistan Are Still Waiting for the Truth | Military.com

 

Interesting follow up...

[ClearedHot]

On 10/26/2024 at 1:03 PM, SocialD said:

Enjoyed the read and I hope this dude finds his peace.  I really don't struggle to find meaning for my trips to Afghanistan (all post 2010), it can be summed up rather simply...a complete waste of my time away from family.  Thankfully I'm at peace with that.  Sadly, I think the lessons will be lost in time and the bureaucracy that is our government/military.  If that weren't true, we wouldn't have made the same mistakes as we did in Vietnam.  

I've gone back and forth in my mind a thousand times, nine deployments was it a waste?  Our yardstick of success tends to be the end state which is valid but doesn't tell the whole story.  While it sucks the Taliban are running Afghanistan today I prefer to think about it in different terms like a relative peace at home for 20 years.  Afghanistan was a flame the drew a lot of bad moths and we killed them all over there instead of here.  Not necessarily the perfect metric of winning and losing but if you step back there is value to what you did, it was not a waste.

I cringe when I see the Vietnam comparisons.  That was a fumbling bumbling proxy war against Russia, we wasted 58,220 American lives trying to keep South Vietnam "free."  Our political and military leaders were stooges who tied our hands behind our back when it came to fighting.  While far from perfect, the military was allowed to truly fight in Afghanistan and we created a killing machine that eliminated a lot of horrible humans. 

The effectiveness of the War on Terror will be debated for many years to come. Wars always get front-page press because of the drama.  A few stats for perspective:

From 2019 to 2022 107,941 Americans died from drug overdoses.

From 2011 to 2021 110,000 Americans died due to drunk driving.

9/11 alone we lost 2,977 Americans.

In 20+ years of fighting in Afghanistan we lost 2459 American service men and women.

 

 

 

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I've gone back and forth in my mind a thousand times, nine deployments was it a waste?  Our yardstick of success tends to be the end state which is valid but doesn't tell the whole story.  While it sucks the Taliban are running Afghanistan today I prefer to think about it in different terms like a relative peace at home for 20 years.  Afghanistan was a flame the drew a lot of bad moths and we killed them all over there instead of here.  Not necessarily the perfect metric of winning and losing but if you step back there is value to what you did, it was not a waste.

I cringe when I see the Vietnam comparisons.  That was a fumbling bumbling proxy war against Russia, we wasted 58,220 American lives trying to keep South Vietnam "free."  Our political and military leaders were stooges who tied our hands behind our back when it came to fighting.  While far from perfect, the military was allowed to truly fight in Afghanistan and we created a killing machine that eliminated a lot of horrible humans. 

The effectiveness of the War on Terror will be debated for many years to come. Wars always get front-page press because of the drama.  A few stats for perspective:

From 2019 to 2022 107,941 Americans died from drug overdoses.

From 2011 to 2021 110,000 Americans died due to drunk driving.

9/11 alone we lost 2,977 Americans.

In 20+ years of fighting in Afghanistan we lost 2459 American service men and women.

 

 

 

You can build a beautiful house with the finest craftsmanship, sparing no expense and employing the best building techniques. But if the house washes away during the first storm because you built it on a foundation of sand, you are still left with nothing, despite your effort. 

 

It wasn't a waste for *me* because I got to do cool things with great people for good pay, and it dropped me right into the airlines with hardly any effort of my own. I would much rather have done what I did than spend 10+ years in the regionals, but that includes the retrospective knowledge that I wasn't killed or seriously injured. 

 

But it was a waste for the country. It was a waste of 2,459 troops. It was a waste.  

 

At this point, the only way what we did in the Middle East can be "effective" is if we end up in a war, a real, big, no-shit ugly war, in the next 10ish years. We have a humongous population of experienced warfighters, active and veteran, that will put any nation we fight in the grave through a much shallower learning curve than our enemy will face. Russia has proven that experience is the secret ingredient. I believe that will happen, though I hope it will not. 

 

At that point we will finally see the "value" of our wasted time in the desert. 

[fire4effect]

3 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I've gone back and forth in my mind a thousand times, nine deployments was it a waste?  Our yardstick of success tends to be the end state which is valid but doesn't tell the whole story.  While it sucks the Taliban are running Afghanistan today I prefer to think about it in different terms like a relative peace at home for 20 years.  Afghanistan was a flame the drew a lot of bad moths and we killed them all over there instead of here.  Not necessarily the perfect metric of winning and losing but if you step back there is value to what you did, it was not a waste.

I cringe when I see the Vietnam comparisons.  That was a fumbling bumbling proxy war against Russia, we wasted 58,220 American lives trying to keep South Vietnam "free."  Our political and military leaders were stooges who tied our hands behind our back when it came to fighting.  While far from perfect, the military was allowed to truly fight in Afghanistan and we created a killing machine that eliminated a lot of horrible humans. 

The effectiveness of the War on Terror will be debated for many years to come. Wars always get front-page press because of the drama.  A few stats for perspective:

From 2019 to 2022 107,941 Americans died from drug overdoses.

From 2011 to 2021 110,000 Americans died due to drunk driving.

9/11 alone we lost 2,977 Americans.

In 20+ years of fighting in Afghanistan we lost 2459 American service men and women.

 

 

I can't really argue with much in your post. 

Comparing Viet Nam will never be perfect on any level, but it did remind me of a number of conversations I had with the Air Force relative (EB-66 pilot) that if they'd had even a small amount of precision/stand-off weapons we have now then the whole thing would have been over in short order. No way they could've massed forces for the Tet Offensive. Or the Dragon Jaw would have been a pile of rubble in the river in a matter of hours. etc.

Of course, communists are generally more pragmatic than religious fanatics.

I completely agree a lot of bad individuals were taken off the board and I can't help but wonder what the remaining Taliban over there in their hovels are thinking like us saying "what the hell did we gain"  

Several weeks ago, I talked to an Afghan who has done very well assimilating into US culture and he hears from relatives still in country and in a perfect example of rules for thee but not for me the Taliban leadership send their daughters outside Afghanistan to be educated. Can I prove that? No but it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited October 28 by fire4effect
spellun

[SocialD]

4 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I've gone back and forth in my mind a thousand times, nine deployments was it a waste?  Our yardstick of success tends to be the end state which is valid but doesn't tell the whole story.  While it sucks the Taliban are running Afghanistan today I prefer to think about it in different terms like a relative peace at home for 20 years.  Afghanistan was a flame the drew a lot of bad moths and we killed them all over there instead of here.  Not necessarily the perfect metric of winning and losing but if you step back there is value to what you did, it was not a waste.

I cringe when I see the Vietnam comparisons.  That was a fumbling bumbling proxy war against Russia, we wasted 58,220 American lives trying to keep South Vietnam "free."  Our political and military leaders were stooges who tied our hands behind our back when it came to fighting.  While far from perfect, the military was allowed to truly fight in Afghanistan and we created a killing machine that eliminated a lot of horrible humans. 

The effectiveness of the War on Terror will be debated for many years to come. Wars always get front-page press because of the drama.  A few stats for perspective:

From 2019 to 2022 107,941 Americans died from drug overdoses.

From 2011 to 2021 110,000 Americans died due to drunk driving.

9/11 alone we lost 2,977 Americans.

In 20+ years of fighting in Afghanistan we lost 2459 American service men and women.

 

 

 

I can't disagree with your point on Vietnam, I guess I just meant we allowed ourselves to get drawn into an protracted quagmire with no real objective or end state, other than just keep killing bad guys* (kinda...more below).  You can kill as many bad guys as you want, but at some point along the way, you just keep creating more bad guys after you kill their grand-fathers/fathers/uncles.  Also, how many were there fighting only becuase we were occupying their nation?  

 

Your experience is probably vastly different than mine.  My trips were marked with such a tight ROE that I really don't know why we were there.  On my last trip we watched as we let a conga line of 75+ verified Taliban go because the O-7 and his JAG at AUAB decided we can't upset the Taliban at the table.   This was just one of many events that were similar from that trip and the unit we ripped out had tapes of multiple situation which were much worse.  As another point...when a GO/his JAG, over 1,000 NM away, are making every employment decision, then it's long past time to go home. 

 

We lost 2,459 solider "over there, but as you're well aware, the real number is much higher and counting.  Your stats above are well taken, as well as other opinions on the knowledge/skill we gained for our next fight.  On the flip side, many of those stats would happen either way and how much further would our military tech be if we didn't funnel our tax dollars to go sling 2 x $80k JDAMs at the farmer turned sniper?  How much better off would our national deficit be?  Would have been worse off if we would have just killed OBL at Tora Bora and pulled chocks?  How much peace was gained by the second decade over there?  Of course that's up to debate and something we'll never really knows.

 

Maybe I'm being a bit too simplistic, I'd love to have this debate with many of you gents over beers.  

[BFM this]

All valid points.

But Occam's razor suggests the biggest element that led to us being in country for 20 years, accomplishing what should have taken months at best. 

At the end of the day, Smedley Butler would have called it a Racket, plain and simple.  Trillions of dollars was spent.  And trillions of dollars was made...

And it continues...while I watch closely the hotspots smoldering around the world today through a lens of at least entry level geopolitical education, I cast a jaundiced eye toward the tendency to pour cash into the hole vs defined outcomes.

Edited October 28 by BFM this

[ClearedHot]

46 minutes ago, SocialD said:

I can't disagree with your point on Vietnam, I guess I just meant we allowed ourselves to get drawn into an protracted quagmire with no real objective or end state, other than just keep killing bad guys* (kinda...more below).  You can kill as many bad guys as you want, but at some point along the way, you just keep creating more bad guys after you kill their grand-fathers/fathers/uncles.  Also, how many were there fighting only becuase we were occupying their nation? 

As the fight went on there was a lot of data that showed MANY of the fighters were coming from foreign lands.  The primary motivation is as you have noted, the Americans occupying. 

48 minutes ago, SocialD said:

Your experience is probably vastly different than mine.  My trips were marked with such a tight ROE that I really don't know why we were there.  On my last trip we watched as we let a conga line of 75+ verified Taliban go because the O-7 and his JAG at AUAB decided we can't upset the Taliban at the table.   This was just one of many events that were similar from that trip and the unit we ripped out had tapes of multiple situation which were much worse.  As another point...when a GO/his JAG, over 1,000 NM away, are making every employment decision, then it's long past time to go home.

Most of my deployments were early on and the ROE, especially in the beginning, was very permissive as compared to later in the war.  My first two deployments we were often cleared into a kill container and given free reign to shoot ANY vehicles.  I can't tell you how many Toyotas we zapped, once we started shooting dudes with guns would pour out like a clown car.  Interestingly, at least 50% of what I shot in that time period I found with my NVGs.  Sensors are great but they are a soda straw.  Using my NVGs I was able to scan large areas and would usually find a target within a few minutes.  There were nights I went Winchester with a full combat load two hours into the Vul, landed at Bagram or Jalalabad, took another combat load and did it again.  Gun over-heating limitations were a real thing.  On my last two deployments I do recall the tight ROE, that being said, I never had a deployment where I did not shoot.

53 minutes ago, SocialD said:

We lost 2,459 solider "over there, but as you're well aware, the real number is much higher and counting.  Your stats above are well taken, as well as other opinions on the knowledge/skill we gained for our next fight.  On the flip side, many of those stats would happen either way and how much further would our military tech be if we didn't funnel our tax dollars to go sling 2 x $80k JDAMs at the farmer turned sniper?  How much better off would our national deficit be?  Would have been worse off if we would have just killed OBL at Tora Bora and pulled chocks?  How much peace was gained by the second decade over there?  Of course that's up to debate and something we'll never really knows.

Impossible to know it would have changed the national debt.  Remember we can't view the conflict with only a 2024 optic...In the days after 9/11 we were sure there would be more attacks unless we acted and we would be a vastly different country had we just taken that hit on the chin and turned away.

55 minutes ago, SocialD said:

Maybe I'm being a bit too simplistic, I'd love to have this debate with many of you gents over beers.  

Beers, whiskey, coffee at my casa anytime for anyone that needs it. 

[ViperMan]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I can't tell you how many Toyotas we zapped, once we started shooting dudes with guns would pour out like a clown car.  Interestingly, at least 50% of what I shot in that time period I found with my NVGs.  Sensors are great but they are a soda straw.  Using my NVGs I was able to scan large areas and would usually find a target within a few minutes.  There were nights I went Winchester with a full combat load two hours into the Vul, landed at Bagram or Jalalabad, took another combat load and did it again.  Gun over-heating limitations were a real thing.  On my last two deployments I do recall the tight ROE, that being said, I never had a deployment where I did not shoot.

6 hours ago, SocialD said:

Fuckin' A. Cheers and good work. 

[M2]

Just for comparison, as of the latest reports, it is estimated that over 71,000 Russian soldiers have been confirmed killed in Ukraine.

The actual number is likely higher due to the challenges in verifying all casualties.

It hasn't even reached the three-year mark...