COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[VMFA187]

7 hours ago, pawnman said:

 

I'll be first in line for a Covid-19 vaccine if it means seeing my extended family on holidays again, having live sports and concerts, having in-person parties and group events, etc...

 

You can do that without the vaccine. 

[GoodSplash9]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

"Rammed through with no testing"...what do you think is in the vaccine?  Do you think they've crafted some kind of wild, unique additives never before used in a vaccine just for this one?  

Vaccines are a pretty well established technology.  The only risky part is using portions of the virus to elicit a response...with that risk being that you actually infect people with Covid instead of preventing them from getting it.

Again, The messenger RNA vaccine technology used by Pfizer and Moderna is brand new...as in never(key word) used in a vaccine previously and never studied for long term effects. Sounds like a lot of people are ignorant of this fact.

They aren’t putting live/attenuated/dead virus in you, they are providing messenger  RNA (genetic code sequences) that provides “instructions” for your own cells/ribosomes to create COVID like proteins that lead to an immune response.

 

https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html

https://m.jpost.com/health-science/could-an-mrna-vaccine-be-dangerous-in-the-long-term-649253

https://www.bulatlat.com/2020/08/21/hazards-of-the-covid-19-vaccine/

https://oftwominds.cloudhostedresources.com/?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oftwominds.com%2Fblognov20%2Fcovid-vaccines11-20.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-vaccine-covid-19-cure-doctor-moderna-novavax-oxford-a9523091.html

[pawnman]

48 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

You can do that without the vaccine. 

Not where I live.  Maybe the Covid numbers are better where you live.

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, GoodSplash9 said:

Again, The messenger RNA vaccine technology used by Pfizer and Moderna is brand new...as in never(key word) used in a vaccine previously and never studied for long term effects. Sounds like a lot of people are ignorant of this fact.

They aren’t putting live/attenuated/dead virus in you, they are providing messenger  RNA (genetic code sequences) that provides “instructions” for your own cells/ribosomes to create COVID like proteins that lead to an immune response.

 

https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html

https://m.jpost.com/health-science/could-an-mrna-vaccine-be-dangerous-in-the-long-term-649253

https://www.bulatlat.com/2020/08/21/hazards-of-the-covid-19-vaccine/

https://oftwominds.cloudhostedresources.com/?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oftwominds.com%2Fblognov20%2Fcovid-vaccines11-20.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-vaccine-covid-19-cure-doctor-moderna-novavax-oxford-a9523091.html

That's fucking cool, sign me up.

Also, I had a post here that I guess didn't actually post.  But where I'm at, currently our numbers are:

• Percent of all non-ICU Bed Occupied - 58.2%
• Percent of all ICU Beds Occupied - 90.8%
• Percent of Referral Center ICU Beds Occupied - 94.3%

So...not good.  Articles have already started about rationing care, and not allowing anymore transfers in from outlying hospitals AKA where people say it's not bad because their hospital isn't full.

This one stuck out to me though for all the "co-morbidity" folks, for our hospitalizations the percentage with at least 1 pre-existing condition - 49.7%.  4K cases everyday through the weekend so far.  Only thing helping us in Utah is the fact that we're a rather young population state, mostly white, and mostly healthy.  According to our gov't roll-out plan I won't get the vaccine until about next Jul.

[Prozac]

I wonder if the polio vaccine would’ve been successful if the internet existed back then. 🤦‍♂️ 

[N730]

Again, The messenger RNA vaccine technology used by Pfizer and Moderna is brand new...as in never(key word) used in a vaccine previously and never studied for long term effects. Sounds like a lot of people are ignorant of this fact.
They aren’t putting live/attenuated/dead virus in you, they are providing messenger  RNA (genetic code sequences) that provides “instructions” for your own cells/ribosomes to create COVID like proteins that lead to an immune response.
 
https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html
https://m.jpost.com/health-science/could-an-mrna-vaccine-be-dangerous-in-the-long-term-649253
https://www.bulatlat.com/2020/08/21/hazards-of-the-covid-19-vaccine/
https://oftwominds.cloudhostedresources.com/?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oftwominds.com%2Fblognov20%2Fcovid-vaccines11-20.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-vaccine-covid-19-cure-doctor-moderna-novavax-oxford-a9523091.html

What about AstraZenica and Johnson and Johnson?

I was under the understanding that their vaccine was more traditional. If im mistaken, please correct me!

I'd think since the Moderna vaccine only requires basic refrigeration, it would be the one given in harder to reach areas around the world and we would be more likely to get the AstraZenica or J&J vaccines that requires the extremely cold temperatures.

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[17D_guy]

26 minutes ago, Prozac said:

I wonder if the polio vaccine would’ve been successful if the internet existed back then. 🤦‍♂️ 

I don't know, would the leader of the free world have called it a hoax of the opposition, not a big deal and under control while s/he encouraged people to disregard their local leaders while suggesting injecting "disinfectant" and internal sunlight until it's gone this summer, winter, next year when there's a vaccine?

Salk said he wouldn't patent the vaccine because it would be like "patenting the Sun."  That's how much fear polio caused.  We've been coddled in our lifetimes with no serious epidemics in our country.

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

I don't know, would the leader of the free world have called it a hoax of the opposition, not a big deal and under control while s/he encouraged people to disregard their local leaders while suggesting injecting "disinfectant" and internal sunlight until it's gone this summer, winter, next year when there's a vaccine?

Salk said he wouldn't patent the vaccine because it would be like "patenting the Sun."  That's how much fear polio caused.  We've been coddled in our lifetimes with no serious epidemics in our country.

 

 It's definitely not a hoax. People are actually dying. I had a family member who said she wished she knew exactly what the odds are she would die if she caught COVID. Sort of a difficult number to pin down.

I went to the CDC website. The "Current Best Estimate" data is a little old, 10th of September, but numbers the CDC gives health professionals for planning and preparedness are as follows. I guess it depends on your age, but everyone carries some risk of dying from an infection.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

Edited November 23, 2020 by torqued

[brabus]

8 hours ago, Prozac said:

I wonder if the polio vaccine would’ve been successful if the internet existed back then. 🤦‍♂️ 

Polio had a yearly average 11.5% death rate pre-vaccine. From the time Salk created the first version of the vaccine, 5 years elapsed of study, tests, and clinical trials, before there was a nationwide drive for inoculation.

Recap: Polio was significantly more deadly and 5 years of clinical testing/data prior to mass release. Apples and oranges.

[M2]

[M2]

[pawnman]

42 minutes ago, M2 said:

The mask is to protect others from you.  Which is why you wear it when you walk past all the tables of people not wearing masks.

[celtic020]

The anti-vaxers not wanting to get vaccinated for COVID is the ending 2020 deserves.   Bravo.  

[17D_guy]

2 hours ago, M2 said:

How about one about seat belts or drunk driving?

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, M2 said:

Sure they have. Many state governments have banned smoking in public spaces because it’s been proven that one person’s second hand smoke can harm a non smoker. 

[Snuggie]

2 hours ago, M2 said:

This might be the biggest issue with the decentralized response to COVID in the US. There is no real safe way to eat in a restaurant indoors: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/11/can-you-get-coronavirus-inside-restaurant/617151/

But closing restaurants is hard, and would require major government intervention to keep them from going bankrupt, which as a country we have proven we won't do. So we are doing "virus theater" and pretending it's ok because the tables are slightly farther apart. 

I haven't eaten inside a restaurant since mid-March, and don't plan on it until my family is fully vaccinated. 

 

[VMFA187]

13 hours ago, pawnman said:

Not where I live.  Maybe the Covid numbers are better where you live.

No, the Governor of California have forbid people from gathering for Thanksgiving - Doesn't mean he has the legal power to do so. As such, it won't prevent me and my family from going to Big Bear this week with three of my closest friends and their families to eat, drink, and be merry. 

We're also relatively young, fit, and healthy. People have to make their own choices based on the lives they've lived. We're not close to any elderly family members so it's a calculated risk, just like each time you go fly a mission, drive to work, or any other activity where potential harm can occur. 

[Day Man]

1 hour ago, Snuggie said:

So we are doing "virus theater" and pretending it's ok because the tables are slightly farther apart. 

I went to a restaurant last month that required you to keep your mask on at your table until you had been served a drink...one of the more nonsensical rules I have experienced.

[brabus]

2 hours ago, Snuggie said:

There is no real safe way to eat in a restaurant indoors: 

There hasn’t been your entire life, if we’re defining unsafe as risk of catching respiratory viruses in a public setting exists. The flu, pneumonia, etc. didn’t make people not want to eat out, yet here we are pretending 12% positive rate and 99.86% survival rates (US under 70) are Ebola reincarnated. For comparison, last year the positive test rate for the flu was 52% and death rate was ~ .02% for under 70. So quite literally, the risk to your average, healthy person under 70 is .12% higher than the flu. Clearly risk goes exponentially up or down to age groups above and below the 70 line. 
 

People spent 2018 cool with a 52% chance of catching a virus followed by a 99.98% survival rate, yet are incredibly concerned in 2020 over a 12% chance of catching a different virus followed by a 99.86% survival rate. I get it this doesn’t encompass specific scenarios like elderly family with health issues, the individuals with compromised immune systems, healthcare workers in close proximity to high risk patients, etc. But, it does encapsulate the vast majority of our demographics.

[pawnman]

53 minutes ago, brabus said:

There hasn’t been your entire life, if we’re defining unsafe as risk of catching respiratory viruses in a public setting exists. The flu, pneumonia, etc. didn’t make people not want to eat out, yet here we are pretending 12% positive rate and 99.86% survival rates (US under 70) are Ebola reincarnated. For comparison, last year the positive test rate for the flu was 52% and death rate was ~ .02% for under 70. So quite literally, the risk to your average, healthy person under 70 is .12% higher than the flu. Clearly risk goes exponentially up or down to age groups above and below the 70 line. 
 

People spent 2018 cool with a 52% chance of catching a virus followed by a 99.98% survival rate, yet are incredibly concerned in 2020 over a 12% chance of catching a different virus followed by a 99.86% survival rate. I get it this doesn’t encompass specific scenarios like elderly family with health issues, the individuals with compromised immune systems, healthcare workers in close proximity to high risk patients, etc. But, it does encapsulate the vast majority of our demographics.

We have a vaccine for the flu...we don't have one for Covid-19 year.

The R0 for Covid-19 is much higher than the flu.

We still don't have awesome data about long-term effects for people who recover from Covid-19, even people with mild symptoms initially...but it doesn't look great.  Flu doesn't usually keep you from exercising for months.  Covid-19 is.  https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists

[VMFA187]

11 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Flu doesn't usually keep you from exercising for months.  Covid-19 is.  https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists

Average effectiveness of the flu shot is about 40% with fluctuations year-to-year. 

Over the summer I had chills and night sweats, a slight fever and sore throat for about 2-3 days after meeting a few friends for lunch and drinks at a restaurant that, the following day claimed a number of their staff tested positive on their social media page.

I never got tested but stayed home Tues - Sun (got word on Monday evening regarding the restaurant, had a sore throat Wed, completely resolved Fri morning) but still went for runs outside and although my avg time dropped about 60 seconds per mile for a four or five mile run, it certainly didn't prevent me from exercise during, let alone after likely having had the virus. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by VMFA187
.

[brabus]

38 minutes ago, pawnman said:

We have a vaccine for the flu...we don't have one for Covid-19 year.

The R0 for Covid-19 is much higher than the flu.

We still don't have awesome data about long-term effects for people who recover from Covid-19, even people with mild symptoms initially...but it doesn't look great.  Flu doesn't usually keep you from exercising for months.  Covid-19 is.  https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists

Last year 62% got the flu vaccine with an effectiveness rate of 29%. The 10 year average is 57.3% getting it and 42.4% effectiveness. So, even with a flu vaccine and 62% of the population getting it last year, it was still only .12% less deadly than covid with zero vaccine for the under 70 population. What does that say?
 

Lots of future speculation, so I can speculate as accurately that if you show me one person with longterm can’t-workout problems, I’ll show you substantially more who got over it in a week or less and are fine (or were so unaffected they didn’t even know they had it). Both groups exist, but let’s not pretend we actually have statistically relevant data to make claims there are meaningful probabilities of long term effects in substantial numbers. I believe it is completely possible that could become an accurate statement in the future, but for now it’s almost purely speculation based on statistically irrelevant numbers, outliers, etc. 

[pawnman]

19 minutes ago, brabus said:

Last year 62% got the flu vaccine with an effectiveness rate of 29%. The 10 year average is 57.3% getting it and 42.4% effectiveness. So, even with a flu vaccine and 62% of the population getting it last year, it was still only .12% less deadly than covid with zero vaccine for the under 70 population. What does that say?
 

Lots of future speculation, so I can speculate as accurately that if you show me one person with longterm can’t-workout problems, I’ll show you substantially more who got over it in a week or less and are fine (or were so unaffected they didn’t even know they had it). Both groups exist, but let’s not pretend we actually have statistically relevant data to make claims there are meaningful probabilities of long term effects in substantial numbers. I believe it is completely possible that could become an accurate statement in the future, but for now it’s almost purely speculation based on statistically irrelevant numbers, outliers, etc. 

From the article:

 One group in Italy found that 87% of a patient cohort hospitalized for acute COVID-19 was still struggling 2 months later. Data from the COVID Symptom Study, which uses an app into which millions of people in the United States, United Kingdom, and Sweden have tapped their symptoms, suggest 10% to 15% of people—including some “mild” cases—don’t quickly recover. But with the crisis just months old, no one knows how far into the future symptoms will endure, and whether COVID-19 will prompt the onset of chronic diseases.

I mean...I can show you a bunch of people that smoked their whole lives and never got cancer.  That doesn't negate the fact that smoking is highly correlated to cancer rates.

[viper154]

39 minutes ago, pawnman said:

From the article:

 One group in Italy found that 87% of a patient cohort hospitalized for acute COVID-19 was still struggling 2 months later. Data from the COVID Symptom Study, which uses an app into which millions of people in the United States, United Kingdom, and Sweden have tapped their symptoms, suggest 10% to 15% of people—including some “mild” cases—don’t quickly recover. But with the crisis just months old, no one knows how far into the future symptoms will endure, and whether COVID-19 will prompt the onset of chronic diseases.

I mean...I can show you a bunch of people that smoked their whole lives and never got cancer.  That doesn't negate the fact that smoking is highly correlated to cancer rates.

I think the key there is hospitalized patients. Most patients that are hospitalized are elderly and/or other have health conditions, so they probably weren’t exactly fit to begin with. Small sample size, but I have several friends/co workers that have had the COVID, all either didn’t know they had it (except for a mandatory test coming back positive) or had mild symptoms and were back exercising within a week. 
 

To me, it just again emphasizes that people and businesses need to make the right choices for their situation. I’m in the camp of living as normally as possible. No one in my immediate family is anywhere near high risk, and we are not near elderly family. Our family engages in plenty of other “high risk” activities that are more likely to cause harm than COVID. Life is to short for us to hide in the house for something that most likely a non factor. 

I am all for the government “advising” what they think is best, but telling people (making laws/orders) how many guests they can have in their house is a step way to far. I have been to the hospital/doctor many times in my youth for injuries, every time the sky is falling and they want you to sit in bed until you are all better. From a medical stand point, sure, but from a practical/life stand point that isn’t always realistic. Unfortunately the medical field has been making policies for the law makers, with out to much of that common sense being intertwined, and a heavy dose of fear being thrown in. 
 

if the doctors had their way, no one would ride motorcycles, drink, play contact sports, etc. Do what’s best for you and live your life as you see fit. 

[ViperMan]

17 hours ago, Prozac said:

I wonder if the polio vaccine would’ve been successful if the internet existed back then. 🤦‍♂️ 

I wonder if the Third Reich would have been successful if the internet existed back then. 🤔