COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Negatory]

12 hours ago, torqued said:

How did you manage to go from complaining about me skipping your 9/11 and Holocaust question, to stating that some things just are not worthy of consideration... in two sentences... while failing to make the connection?

That's impressive.

Follow up question: How did you manage to write two consecutive rather wordy rebuttals in consideration of the professor's COVID thesis... just before smugly dismissing them as "not worth your consideration"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

 

The posts flow together and are all related in reference to the paradox of tolerance. Feel free to address their merits when you have a second, although I know you won’t because you backed yourself into a logical corner.

In regards to why I responded to the invalid post claiming zero excess deaths: If someone said something outrageous, and the forum agreed for some unknown reason, then a rebuttal is warranted as I assume people don’t have information.

The solid truth is that there are COVID excess deaths on the order of at least 200k+. I looked into the claims, and they are invalid. She compares unchanging death percentages month to month when she should be comparing total deaths which shift based on time of year. She is misrepresenting facts, just like you guys did when you tried to claim that the CDC actually admitted that only 6% of COVID deaths are real:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cdc-did-not-admit-only-6-of-recorded-deaths-from-covid-19/
 

Disinformation and Facebook is now even killing my peers.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Negatory

[gearhog]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:56 AM, Negatory said:

The TRUTH is that we’ve had over 300k excess deaths just until October, and probably tens of thousands since then.

33 minutes ago, Negatory said:

The solid truth is that there are COVID excess deaths on the order of at least 200k+.

Wanna take a wild guess as to why I might suspect that it’s possible you’re full of shit? 😂 

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, M2 said:

Liberty, motherfucker.  Get some! 

I like liberty. I’d like the liberty to eat at my favorite restaurant, to go to a concert, to take a vacation, to watch my kids play team sports, to throw a party, and many, many other things I haven’t been able to do in a while. None of that is going to happen anytime soon unless the majority of our population agrees to be vaccinated. Vaccine = liberty. 

[VMFA187]

 

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

It's amazing for me that an entire forum of people who signed on the dotted line and were willing to sacrifice their lives for this country aren't willing to tolerate a little discomfort or get a vaccine that's far less risky than the average combat sortie in order to help the country.

 

You have absolutely no idea what long term effects said vaccine might have - Forcing someone who is incredibly low risk to take something that could even potentially have negative long term effects is garbage. Should my 2 year old who doesn't even have a fully developed immune system yet be forced to take it?

Forced vaccine equals liberty? No. 

And you must be flying some crazy missions in country because I never thought my 9 hour flights over there in an old ass Hornet were any riskier than an average training sortie. 

[Snuggie]

Life comes at you fast:

Everybody talks a big game until they get a bad case. 

[Tank]

I wasn’t allowed to say anything until today, but it's now okay for me to share that I have volunteered for the Covid-19 vaccine from Pfizer. The vaccine is the one that has been developed in Russia. It is in 6 different stages and I received my first dose this morning at 06:20 am, and I wanted to let you all know that it is safe and I’m ok, with иo side effects whatsoeveя, and that I feelshκι я чувю себя немного стрно и я думю, что вытл осные уши. чувству себя немго страо. Comrade!

[Snuggie]

2 hours ago, M2 said:

Liberty, motherer.  Get some! 

If we had better contract tracing I would be all for this. If there is one ICU bed and it’s between an essential worker and somebody who has weekly house parties? Sucks to suck but the essential worker gets the bed and the partier get to live with their decisions. 
 

Hospitals are already preparing to ration care (and some have started). Personal actions are not playing a role in who will get rationed care but I think it should. If we are going to scream personal liberty then the flip side of liberty (dealing with consequences) should play a role in who receives life saving care with COVID. 

[Prozac]

34 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

 

You have absolutely no idea what long term effects said vaccine might have - Forcing someone who is incredibly low risk to take something that could even potentially have negative long term effects is garbage. Should my 2 year old who doesn't even have a fully developed immune system yet be forced to take it?

Forced vaccine equals liberty? No. 

And you must be flying some crazy missions in country because I never thought my 9 hour flights over there in an old ass Hornet were any riskier than an average training sortie. 

https://www.consumerreports.org/coronavirus/how-to-know-if-coronavirus-vaccine-is-safe-and-effective/
 

It’s going to be as safe as any other vaccine out there.  Even if you feel you are at low risk, remember, widespread vaccination is as much about removing your potential to be a vector for the disease as it is about protecting you from it. 

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

I like liberty. I’d like the liberty to eat at my favorite restaurant, to go to a concert, to take a vacation, to watch my kids play team sports, to throw a party, and many, many other things I haven’t been able to do in a while. None of that is going to happen anytime soon unless the majority of our population agrees to be vaccinated. Vaccine = liberty. 

Weird. I haven't been to a concert, but I've literally done all of those other things multiple times. I suppose the virus hasn't decided to lock the doors and turn off the lights where I live.

[VMFA187]

5 minutes ago, Prozac said:

https://www.consumerreports.org/coronavirus/how-to-know-if-coronavirus-vaccine-is-safe-and-effective/
 

It’s going to be as safe as any other vaccine out there.  Even if you feel you are at low risk, remember, widespread vaccination is as much about removing your potential to be a vector for the disease as it is about protecting you from it. 

I can post links too. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

If you're scared, get it. If you are concerned for older or unhealthy people you associate with, get it. Why should I buy additional risk, however small? I volunteer to buy some risk for some things, but that is and should remain my decision. 

1 minute ago, torqued said:

Weird. I haven't been to a concert, but I've literally done all of those other things multiple times. I suppose the virus hasn't decided to lock the doors and turn off the lights where I live.

Agreed. I go out to eat with my wife and daughter about twice a week at local restaurants (outside now, which isn't so bad in San Diego), went on vacation this past weekend with three other families, thrown and attended parties/get-togethers just about every weekend, and my daughter goes to the park about 3-5x a week because its good for her development at such a young age to socialize. 

Some people just give up their liberties more easily than others I suppose. 

[Seadogs]

Still replying to these jokers? I bet they aren't even pilots. Probably Gender Studies graduates. 

[waveshaper]

48 minutes ago, Tank said:

I wasn’t allowed to say anything until today, but it's now okay for me to share that I have volunteered for the Covid-19 vaccine from Pfizer. The vaccine is the one that has been developed in Russia. It is in 6 different stages and I received my first dose this morning at 06:20 am, and I wanted to let you all know that it is safe and I’m ok, with иo side effects whatsoeveя, and that I feelshκι я чувю себя немного стрно и я думю, что вытл осные уши. чувству себя немго страо. Comrade!

I see things haven't changed much in Russia/USSR since WW2 . Typically volunteers for vaccines in that AO are Shatrafniki's assigned to a Shtrafbat.

[pawnman]

14 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

I can post links too. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

If you're scared, get it. If you are concerned for older or unhealthy people you associate with, get it. Why should I buy additional risk, however small? I volunteer to buy some risk for some things, but that is and should remain my decision. 

Agreed. I go out to eat with my wife and daughter about twice a week at local restaurants (outside now, which isn't so bad in San Diego), went on vacation this past weekend with three other families, thrown and attended parties/get-togethers just about every weekend, and my daughter goes to the park about 3-5x a week because its good for her development at such a young age to socialize. 

Some people just give up their liberties more easily than others I suppose. 

Again... Baffling to hear military members engaged in such a high-risk activity as aviation suddenly unable to take a miniscule risk for the protection of their fellow Americans.

I'll be first in line for the vaccine.  People like you are why 2021 will look a lot like 2020 in terms of masks and movement restrictions.

[VMFA187]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

Again... Baffling to hear military members engaged in such a high-risk activity as aviation suddenly unable to take a miniscule risk for the protection of their fellow Americans.

I'll be first in line for the vaccine.  People like you are why 2021 will look a lot like 2020 in terms of masks and movement restrictions.

Aviation isn't risky, it's unforgiving.

People like you are why the future will look like "1984."

[pawnman]

1 minute ago, VMFA187 said:

Aviation isn't risky, it's unforgiving.

People like you are why the future will look like "1984."

People who understand science and vaccines?

Ok.  Keep going to those parties.  I'm sure nothing bad can possibly happen.

Edited December 1, 2020 by pawnman

[Prozac]

33 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

I can post links too. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

If you're scared, get it. If you are concerned for older or unhealthy people you associate with, get it. Why should I buy additional risk, however small? I volunteer to buy some risk for some things, but that is and should remain my decision. 

Agreed. I go out to eat with my wife and daughter about twice a week at local restaurants (outside now, which isn't so bad in San Diego), went on vacation this past weekend with three other families, thrown and attended parties/get-togethers just about every weekend, and my daughter goes to the park about 3-5x a week because its good for her development at such a young age to socialize. 

Some people just give up their liberties more easily than others I suppose. 

You’re certainly free to exercise your own judgement, just as the rest of us are. I choose to minimize my exposure because I understand there is a chance that I could be an asymptomatic spreader. Let’s say I attend a party. I’m relatively young, healthy, and do not regularly come into contact with high risk individuals. The partygoers are much like myself. But those people in the crowded room with me.....some of them will likely come into contact with at risk populations. Thus, even though I’m highly likely to survive, and I’ve taken steps to ensure I’m not directly in contact with elderly or immunocompromised individuals, I’m still potentially spreading a virus that is deadly to some. Well, it’s a relatively limited group of people at the party you say? Well, take that to a national scale and multiply by the millions of Americans who really want to get together (understandably, human nature) and you see why this thing continues to spread. The only things that are going to stop it are A) a vaccine, or B) it burns itself out and kills many hundreds of thousands more in the process. A vaccine that a significant majority of the population receives is literally the ONLY way we get back to anything resembling normal any time soon. 

[gearhog]

1 minute ago, Prozac said:

You’re certainly free to exercise your own judgement, just as the rest of us are. I choose to minimize my exposure because I understand there is a chance that I could be an asymptomatic spreader. Let’s say I attend a party. I’m relatively young, healthy, and do not regularly come into contact with high risk individuals. The partygoers are much like myself. But those people in the crowded room with me.....some of them will likely come into contact with at risk populations. Thus, even though I’m highly likely to survive, and I’ve taken steps to ensure I’m not directly in contact with elderly or immunocompromised individuals, I’m still potentially spreading a virus that is deadly to some. Well, it’s a relatively limited group of people at the party you say? Well, take that to a national scale and multiply by the millions of Americans who really want to get together (understandably, human nature) and you see why this thing continues to spread. The only things that are going to stop it are A) a vaccine, or B) it burns itself out and kills many hundreds of thousands more in the process. A vaccine that a significant majority of the population receives is literally the ONLY way we get back to anything resembling normal any time soon. 

Did you take these same precautionary measures 1 year ago? If not, what was your personal magic number threshold? 65,000?

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

[Prozac]

3 minutes ago, torqued said:

Did you take these same precautionary measures 1 year ago? If not, what was your personal magic number threshold? 65,000?

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

Unfortunately, we have been living with flu deaths for a long time. What I’m not willing to live with is heaping another two to three hundred thousand deaths a year ON TOP of that number. Also, there are a shit ton of Americans who blow off their flu vaccines every year. Maybe that 65,000 doesn’t have to be so high either. 

[gearhog]

Just now, Prozac said:

Unfortunately, we have been living with flu deaths for a long time. What I’m not willing to live with is heaping another two to three hundred thousand deaths a year ON TOP of that number. Also, there are a shit ton of Americans who blow off their flu vaccines every year. Maybe that 65,000 doesn’t have to be so high either. 

You sorta didn't answer the question. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but 200,000 is about where you draw the line. Less=unfortunate, but life goes on. More=Lock it down.

Good news. You're correct. 65,000 doesn't have to be as high. The COVID response effectively eliminated flu deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–2020_United_States_flu_season

So now let's say you get the vaccine and COVID is a non-issue. Are you cool going back to business as usual and accepting tens of thousands of flu deaths as a cost of living?

If not, which precautionary measures would you make permanent?

 

[Prozac]

2 minutes ago, torqued said:

Less=unfortunate, but life goes on. More=Lock it down.

False choice. Never said I was in favor of lockdown. Nor is that a viable long term strategy. Vaccinating a population against a pandemic novel virus with no pre existing human immunity is a viable strategy that will work. You don’t have to like it, but the world we live in is one that will continue to place severe restrictions on what we previously considered normal life. Why so resistant to simple and effective mitigation strategies that will get our kids back in school and our economy back on its feet? 

[Snuggie]

12 minutes ago, torqued said:

If not, which precautionary measures would you make permanent?

-I would like to see more emphasis placed on not working/going to school when sick. Zoom class for when somebody is sick. Make sick days something people take without getting question. Ideally mandate them but I know that won’t fly in the US. 
-Telemedicine options. Do I really need to go into a doctors office for everything? No and it keeps me from being in a room with other sick people. 
-Wearing mask when you have a cold/don’t feel well but still need to be in public. There is data suggesting the reason Japan and other countries in the region had lower rates of COVID is because mask usage was already a cultural norm. 

[brwwg&b]

26 minutes ago, torqued said:

Are you cool going back to business as usual and accepting tens of thousands of flu deaths as a cost of living?

Yes. It fluctuates but averages around 38,000 a year. Roughly the same number of people who die in the U.S. from auto accidents annually.

Yes, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Torqued, what's your line? The 200,000 you asserted as Prozacs line is ~5% of the U.S. annual birth rate, maybe that's a good reference?

The problem with many of these arguments is that instead of a cost to society/humanity, many people only view it as a cost to self/surroundings. (i.e. their line is "1, but only if its me")

Edited December 1, 2020 by brwwg&b
add "number of"

[gearhog]

9 minutes ago, Prozac said:

False choice. Never said I was in favor of lockdown. Nor is that a viable long term strategy. Vaccinating a population against a pandemic novel virus with no pre existing human immunity is a viable strategy that will work. You don’t have to like it, but the world we live in is one that will continue to place severe restrictions on what we previously considered normal life. Why so resistant to simple and effective mitigation strategies that will get our kids back in school and our economy back on its feet? 

Ok, I misunderstood the extent of preventative measures you are in favor of. No lockdowns, but no schools, restaurants, or concerts, either. Fair?

Apologies if I am again misunderstanding, but I think you're saying even after a vaccine arrives, you still believe there should still be severe restrictions.

If we continue to have severe restrictions after the vaccine, is it really reasonable to say the economy will get back on its feet?

[FLEA]

16 minutes ago, Prozac said:

False choice. Never said I was in favor of lockdown. Nor is that a viable long term strategy. Vaccinating a population against a pandemic novel virus with no pre existing human immunity is a viable strategy that will work. You don’t have to like it, but the world we live in is one that will continue to place severe restrictions on what we previously considered normal life. Why so resistant to simple and effective mitigation strategies that will get our kids back in school and our economy back on its feet? 

So I'm curious now: What is your opinion on the human right to bodily autonomy? Do you not think that people have a right to decide what goes in their bodies and the sanctity of their body? 

[gearhog]

17 minutes ago, brwwg&b said:

Yes. It fluctuates but averages around 38,000 a year. Roughly the same people who die in the U.S. from auto accidents annually.

Yes, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Torqued, what's your line? The 200,000 you asserted as Prozacs line is ~5% of the U.S. annual birth rate, maybe that's a good reference?

The problem with many of these arguments is that instead of a cost to society/humanity, many people only view it as a cost to self/surroundings. (i.e. their line is "1, but only if its me")

Great. I think your number is perfectly acceptable. Even though we've demonstrated we can wipe out flu deaths, you're willing to return that number to the historical norm to live a normal life.

Me? I don't have a line. If I were to select an arbitrary number of deaths as being acceptable, you could easily argue "why not 1 less?" or "why not 1 more?". Which is what I'm doing with Prozac. I know it's an unwinnable debate. I just want to see if he'll throw a number out there. Sorry, Prozac.

What I would say is there is a minimum level of freedom I will accept. I'm more than happy to make extraordinary efforts of my own accord to keep the people around me safe. I am not willing to give anyone else the authority to mandate it.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by torqued