COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[pawnman]

11 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

If anyone is interested in how poor third world countries completely mitigated Covid without vaccines, shutdowns, or quarantines while the US government and medical community ignored science, this is a pretty awesome fact based scientific video from Dr Ryan Cole. Hint: Vitamin D / Ivermectin

https://youtu.be/wPbxOeYAC7s

For those of you that rave about the vaccine safety, you apparently aren’t concerned about facial paralysis, young healthy people dropping dead within days, miscarriages, long term headaches, etc...I’d encourage you to check the reported deaths and negative side effects in VAERS (in the tens of thousands). There isn’t even a year of data on the safety or effectiveness in a large population (that’s why you are literally part of a medical experiment). I know, the next argument will be percentages despite the fact that covid has a .4% ish fatality rate for all of us under 60. I’d also encourage you to look at how COVID has hit the Air Force: 

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2184415/air-force-update-for-covid-19/
 

2 hospitalizations with 0 deaths in the AD USAF force.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the vitamin D basket.  There's something else that those developing nations have that the US and Europe don't have - a sub-50% obesity rate.  Covid-19 is vastly more dangerous to people who are overweight/obese than to people at a healthy weight.

https://www.obesityaction.org/community/covid-19-and-obesity-what-does-it-mean-for-you/

Quote

While it was thought that only seniors and people with immune disorders were at increased risk for severe illness, obesity has emerged as a strong and independent risk factor for severe infection and death due to COVID-19.

 

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, Homestar said:

Well yeah. But no major religion prohibits vaccines. Some minor religions have prohibitions on transfusions for example, but to say you have a prohibition against vaccines if you belong to a church that has no such restrictions means you really have a “personal” exemption. Not religious. 

Who says you have to subscribe to a certain church/organized religion to have a certain kind of faith?

[HeloDude]

53 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Usually they aren't the only member of the faith.

We call that mental illness.  Or sometimes, in small numbers, a cult.

Are you supportive of someone having their own faith and abiding by it, even if they’re the only “member” of that certain faith?

[Prozac]

34 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I wouldn't put all my eggs in the vitamin D basket.  There's something else that those developing nations have that the US and Europe don't have - a sub-50% obesity rate.  Covid-19 is vastly more dangerous to people who are overweight/obese than to people at a healthy weight.

https://www.obesityaction.org/community/covid-19-and-obesity-what-does-it-mean-for-you/

 

Also, in developing nations, people with weak immune systems and/or comorbidities are likely to have been previously “culled from the heard” by any number of other diseases that still run rampant in the third world. Some may argue: Well that’s survival of the fittest. We need more of that here. To which I counter: One of the hallmarks of a developed, civilized society is a universal reverence for life. Animals cast off their old and sick for the survival of the herd. One of the things that makes us human is that we’ve evolved past that necessity. Oh, and BTW mass obesity, while an unfortunate fact of life in the United States (perpetuated to a degree by our government’s massive subsidies to corn farmers), there are many other conditions that would make one more susceptible to severe coronavirus outcomes. I am not prepared to tell my friend, who’s son has MS that this whole thing is overblown and we just need more vitamin D. Getting vaccinated is a good sign that you give half a fuck about vulnerable people in our society. 

[tac airlifter]

59 minutes ago, Prozac said:

One of the hallmarks of a developed, civilized society is a universal reverence for life.

 Getting vaccinated is a good sign that you give half a fuck about vulnerable people 

To fully persuade me of your perspective, please share your opinion on abortion and euthanasia.  Philosophical consistency is highly convincing.

[BashiChuni]

ID to vote = RACIST!

Vaccine passport ID = BRILLIANT!

[Prozac]

33 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

To fully persuade me of your perspective, please share your opinion on abortion and euthanasia.  Philosophical consistency is highly convincing.

You’re reaching. I suppose your implied argument is that I only believe in the sanctity of life under certain conditions. You couldn’t be more wrong. Not interested in turning this thread into an abortion debate, a political debate, or anything other than the question of how to mitigate the effects of COVID-19 on our society.
 

Vaccines have been around for a long time and are generally proven to be safe and effective. Ever had a flu vaccine? Guess what, that’s a “new” and “untested” vaccine every year. We don’t know the long term side effects of the flu vaccines we put out, the shingles vaccine, or the chickenpox vaccine because they’re all relatively new. Yet we know enough about how vaccines work to generally accept that they will be safe in the long term. What about MRNA you say? Well the concept has been around for over a decade and has been shown to be safe as well. If it concerns you that much, seek out and get the J&J shot which works like any traditional vaccine.

Or don’t. But be aware, once this vaccine exits the emergency use phase, the courts absolutely support the ability of employers, including the military to make it a requirement for employment. Same with schools and businesses. You can absolutely refuse it if you want, but don’t be surprised when you can’t get your kid enrolled in school, or go on a cruise, or buy an airline ticket, or go to a concert, etc. etc. 

[ClearedHot]

1 minute ago, Prozac said:

 You can absolutely refuse it if you want

Wrong...you might google Jacobson v. Massachusetts.

[Prozac]

50 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Wrong...you might google Jacobson v. Massachusetts.

While that case has certainly been used to uphold things like mandatory vaccination to enroll in public schools, my understanding is that there are no states which currently require compulsory vaccination of any citizen (obviously not the case in Massachusetts in 1905). While vaccines are compulsory for public schools, parents are currently free to refuse and homeschool their children. You’re right that the case could be used to enforce mandatory vaccination in the future, but I think it would be politically untenable to do so. Nor do I think that would be necessary or right. I think restrictions levied by private enterprises will be more than enough motivation for most people to eventually get a COVID-19 vaccine. 

[ClearedHot]

23 minutes ago, Prozac said:

While that case has certainly been used to uphold things like mandatory vaccination to enroll in public schools, my understanding is that there are no states which currently require compulsory vaccination of any citizen (obviously not the case in Massachusetts in 1905). While vaccines are compulsory for public schools, parents are currently free to refuse and homeschool their children. You’re right that the case could be used to enforce mandatory vaccination in the future, but I think it would be politically untenable to do so. Nor do I think that would be necessary or right. I think restrictions levied by private enterprises will be more than enough motivation for most people to eventually get a COVID-19 vaccine. 

Just saying in the absolute, especially considering Stare Decisis, the precedent is there to make it mandatory for the entire population.   Public opinion may go ape shit, but this has already been decided once.

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Who says you have to subscribe to a certain church/organized religion to have a certain kind of faith?

No one. But your exemption on those grounds is personal. Not religious. 

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

You’re reaching. I suppose your implied argument is that I only believe in the sanctity of life under certain conditions. You couldn’t be more wrong. Not interested in turning this thread into an abortion debate, a political debate, or anything other than the question of how to mitigate the effects of COVID-19 on our society.
 

Vaccines have been around for a long time and are generally proven to be safe and effective. Ever had a flu vaccine? Guess what, that’s a “new” and “untested” vaccine every year. We don’t know the long term side effects of the flu vaccines we put out, the shingles vaccine, or the chickenpox vaccine because they’re all relatively new. Yet we know enough about how vaccines work to generally accept that they will be safe in the long term. What about MRNA you say? Well the concept has been around for over a decade and has been shown to be safe as well. If it concerns you that much, seek out and get the J&J shot which works like any traditional vaccine.

Or don’t. But be aware, once this vaccine exits the emergency use phase, the courts absolutely support the ability of employers, including the military to make it a requirement for employment. Same with schools and businesses. You can absolutely refuse it if you want, but don’t be surprised when you can’t get your kid enrolled in school, or go on a cruise, or buy an airline ticket, or go to a concert, etc. etc. 

I’m not implying anything, just seeking to understand your views.  I note that instead of answering, you assumed an implication to my question and then called it wrong.  Ok.  Since your original argument was based on moral superiority (“Being vaccinated shows I give half a fuck about others”) I thought you’d have consistency of thought or application.

I don’t require convincing on the efficacy of vaccines writ large, nor do I need a reminder that in the military I’m going to follow orders.  I’m pro vaccine and have a three page shot record.  I’m merely curious at all the (inconsistent) moral posturing and discouragement of convincing good-faith debate... all of which is antithetical to a healthy society.   
 

Maybe I’m having a hard time forgetting the “experts” were unanimous in concluding we needed a war in Iraq to stop their WMD program.  Look man, I’m not trying to be a dick but one thing I’ve learned is that if an idea is good, it will withstand intellectual scrutiny.  And that lesson has made me generally distrustful of people who want to skip all debate and go straight to execution.  

[Prozac]

31 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

I’m not implying anything, just seeking to understand your views.  I note that instead of answering, you assumed an implication to my question and then called it wrong.  Ok.  Since your original argument was based on moral superiority (“Being vaccinated shows I give half a fuck about others”) I thought you’d have consistency of thought or application.

I don’t require convincing on the efficacy of vaccines writ large, nor do I need a reminder that in the military I’m going to follow orders.  I’m pro vaccine and have a three page shot record.  I’m merely curious at all the (inconsistent) moral posturing and discouragement of convincing good-faith debate... all of which is antithetical to a healthy society.   
 

Maybe I’m having a hard time forgetting the “experts” were unanimous in concluding we needed a war in Iraq to stop their WMD program.  Look man, I’m not trying to be a dick but one thing I’ve learned is that if an idea is good, it will withstand intellectual scrutiny.  And that lesson has made me generally distrustful of people who want to skip all debate and go straight to execution.  

Fair enough. I’m not insisting on stifling the debate. I’m just pretty sure we can go around and around on the abortion issue without uncovering any meaningful new information WRT the COVID vaccine. I don’t think that’s appropriate here. If you’d like to debate that issue separately, feel free to start another thread or PM me. 

[ViperMan]

9 hours ago, GoodSplash9 said:

I personally am very convinced the mRNA will be harmful long term

Why?

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, Homestar said:

No one. But your exemption on those grounds is personal. Not religious. 

So...religious faith is not personal?  I have to subscribe to a certain organized religion to claim a religious exemption?  Why are certain religious organizations/their beliefs given more credibility than others?  

Picking and choosing which religious faiths and organizations are credible and not credible is a dangerous road to go down...

[Homestar]

22 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

So...religious faith is not personal?

Not what I said. 

[magnetfreezer]

4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

ID to vote = RACIST!

Vaccine passport ID = BRILLIANT!

This... most states will give you an ID for a fee on the order of $5-20. That plus time off work, transportation, etc. could be argued to be a disincentive against the poorest/elderly. Fewer poor/elderly will have a (more expensive) smartphone to run the tracking apps to participate in society.

[dream big]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:05 AM, magnetfreezer said:

This... most states will give you an ID for a fee on the order of $5-20. That plus time off work, transportation, etc. could be argued to be a disincentive against the poorest/elderly. Fewer poor/elderly will have a (more expensive) smartphone to run the tracking apps to participate in society.

$10 says iPhones will now become racist next 

[arg]

On 3/29/2021 at 7:05 PM, magnetfreezer said:

This... most states will give you an ID for a fee on the order of $5-20. That plus time off work, transportation, etc. could be argued to be a disincentive against the poorest/elderly. Fewer poor/elderly will have a (more expensive) smartphone to run the tracking apps to participate in society.

Do you mean time off work to get an ID? 

[brabus]

On the ID topic...
 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-black-americans-debunk-liberal-talking-point-that-voter-id-is-racist-theyre-ignorant?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro&fbclid=IwAR3LXnfay3S0y2WPcMfwIq__8NhTOLvRO4v9-_KnD1wB1AUmWHuOpPFh_nU

[M2]

On 3/29/2021 at 1:48 PM, Prozac said:

Also, in developing nations, people with weak immune systems and/or comorbidities are likely to have been previously “culled from the heard” by any number of other diseases that still run rampant in the third world. Some may argue: Well that’s survival of the fittest. We need more of that here. To which I counter: One of the hallmarks of a developed, civilized society is a universal reverence for life. Animals cast off their old and sick for the survival of the herd. One of the things that makes us human is that we’ve evolved past that necessity. Oh, and BTW mass obesity, while an unfortunate fact of life in the United States (perpetuated to a degree by our government’s massive subsidies to corn farmers), there are many other conditions that would make one more susceptible to severe coronavirus outcomes. I am not prepared to tell my friend, who’s son has MS that this whole thing is overblown and we just need more vitamin D. Getting vaccinated is a good sign that you give half a fuck about vulnerable people in our society. 

You had me convinced until that last sentence.  What our society needs more is people who give a half fuck about themselves!   With an obesity rate over 40% and increasing rapidly, it doesn't appear a large number of Americans gave a fuck about their own health before COVID hit.  These same people who want everyone to wear masks for their benefit are the first ones in line at McDonald's drive thru to get the McRib sandwich when it comes out (too much work to actually get out of their vehicles to get them).

It also contradicts your "thinning the herd" argument.  Despite most Americans being the unhealthiest individuals in this country's history, our life expectancy has gone up from below 70 in the 1960s to over 78 today.  We can credit modern medicine for that accomplishment; with the fringe benefit is the longer people live, the more that industry can profit off them.  But I am also not quite sure this extended lifetime equals an extended quality of life. 

As one who is getting closer to the final quarter of his life (i.e., nearing 60), I realize the decisions I made during the first 75% of it will impact how the last 25% will go, and I accept that. 

But also knowing that death could unknowingly be minutes away at any time drives me to want to live and enjoy what's left of my life--be it a few more minutes or decade--to the fullest extent possible.  As such, I firmly believe it is time to stop letting this pandemic control our lives and we as a nation return to the old "normal" as much as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for people voluntarily wearing masks, getting vaccinated, etc. to help end this pandemic; but I don't believe the government has the right to force such measures especially when I constantly see those "high risk" individuals continue with their unhealthy habits on a regular basis (the drive through at Whataburger is always crowded).   Oddly, it appears now that some of the restrictions have been lifted in this state, most of those I see in Walmart or other high risk areas not wearing the masks are the obviously highest vulnerable (i.e. older and/or overweight/unhealthy).

 

[magnetfreezer]

10 hours ago, arg said:

Do you mean time off work to get an ID? 

Yep, those are some of the arguments posed by those against voter ID (voting requirement with a cost = discrimination against the poor).

[BashiChuni]

Maybe voting should have a slight cost? Hell it’s been paid for with a price. 
 

it’s not hard to plan your life to get an ID. It’s certainly not racist. 
I’d argue YOU’RE the racist of you think black Americans aren’t capable of getting ID and registering to vote. 

this is a symptom of the lack of personal responsibility . American life has been too easy the last 40 years and people are lazy and entitled. Shit most people don’t know ANYTHING about the Ga law but they KNOW it’s racist 

Edited April 4, 2021 by BashiChuni

[arg]

I'm trying to think of some examples where someone would have a job and not have an ID, and still be able to vote.

 

[Sua Sponte]

I guess I don’t understand how Oregon had done mail in voting for presidential elections since 2000, not having to have someone show an ID, to cast said ballot, yet states that have Conservative leadership are losing their minds over it?

Why is asking someone to verify their birthday, last four of their SSAN, address, and sign their signature on file (when one got a state driver’s license) not acceptable to cast a ballot but showing an ID? Because that’s everything Colorado just asked me to mail in my vote.