COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Guardian]

Oh goody, another pilot who know more about immunology than immunologists and doctors.
Would you extend the same level of credence to a doctor who read about aviation on the internet? Would you believe a guy who flew jets for 20 years, or a guy who googled an article about lift and drag?
Dunning Kruger on full display in this thread.
 
 

Your analogies are stunningly wild and not relevant. Makes me wonder things about you…..

[Guardian]

Says the Nav who would intentionally seek out those not wearing a mask who haven’t had the shot and issue punishment under Article 15…
Or am I just “trolling you”?  Even though you didn’t even comment on the substance of the article I just posted…
Let me know when you agree with the medical professionals and start wearing a mask again everywhere you go.  

And I wonder no more……Oh wait. Pawnman is a Nav? Haha. Ok. Got it.

Seems like you are the Nav that gives Navs a bad name. You build 100 bridges and you’re a bridge builder, you have sex with ONE goat and…..

[Guardian]

Hard to have a fact based discussion when you distrust everyone who collects the data.

Who said I distrust everyone? What are you even talking about? I was asking you legitimate questions and you go to mis quoting me and getting angry because I was curious what backing and answers you had for your opinion. Not just subjective conjecture.

Are you General Chang?

[pawnman]

6 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Who said I distrust everyone? What are you even talking about? I was asking you legitimate questions and you go to mis quoting me and getting angry because I was curious what backing and answers you had for your opinion. Not just subjective conjecture.

Are you General Chang?

Wow...five quotes in a row.  

But no, I'm not Chang.

I am going to tap put of this conversation, because if I don't, I think I'll say things that will get my posting privileges revoked. 

Good luck fighting the vaccines when they're made mandatory.  I wonder if y'all will fight your airline employers with the same fervor when you find out they're making all the passengers wear masks.

[Guardian]

Just finishing up work and catching up. Couldn’t miss out

[Pooter]

For what it's worth, I trust the vaccine because of the pharmaceutical companies, not in spite of them. 
 

Conservatives (including myself) love to tout how the free market in America fosters more medical innovation than anywhere else on the planet. And I really believe that is the case. Most drugs are developed here. If you need world class surgery of pretty much any kind, you come here. The system isn't perfect but on the innovation front, we solve the shit out of medical problems.
 

And the covid pandemic is the perfect example of that. 9 months ago the US was the covid dumpster fire of the entire world, and now because of these vaccines we are more open, back to normal, and with lower case loads than almost anywhere else. That's an amazing achievement and it has absolutely nothing to do with the government. 
 

It has to do with the awesomely smart people who figured this shit out and who would have never signed off on it if the benefits didn't outweigh the risks. It also has to do with the fact that the free market incentivized these companies to make a vaccine that would actually work. They knew they'd have to compete with other vaccine brands and they also knew the mother of all global class action lawsuits would be waiting for them if they porked it.

[Pooter]

19 minutes ago, Pooter said:

For what it's worth, I trust the vaccine because of the pharmaceutical companies, not in spite of them. 
 

Conservatives (including myself) love to tout how the free market in America fosters more medical innovation than anywhere else on the planet. And I really believe that is the case. Most drugs are developed here. If you need world class surgery of pretty much any kind, you come here. The system isn't perfect but on the innovation front, we solve the shit out of medical problems.
 

And the covid pandemic is the perfect example of that. 9 months ago the US was the covid dumpster fire of the entire world, and now because of these vaccines we are more open, back to normal, and with lower case loads than almost anywhere else. That's an amazing achievement and it has absolutely nothing to do with the government. 
 

It has to do with the awesomely smart people who figured this shit out and who would have never signed off on it if the benefits didn't outweigh the risks. It also has to do with the fact that the free market incentivized these companies to make a vaccine that would actually work. They knew they'd have to compete with other vaccine brands and they also knew the mother of all global class action lawsuits would be waiting for them if they porked it.

Edit: these vaccines are so good they made the liberals clinging to mask wearing look like complete idiots. What's not to love?

[HeloDude]

9 hours ago, pawnman said:

Based on no data, because by my count, you've discounted every source of data.

You don't trust the federal government (while employed by the federal government...interesting irony there).

You don't trust the CDC.

You don't trust the NIH.

You don't trust the FDA.

You don't trust the vaccine manufacturers.

You don't trust the data from state and local governments.

You don't trust the WHO.

I'm just curious what actual information you do trust to make these decisions.  I'm also curious if you'd have the same disdain for medical professionals if you were being treated for something other than Covid.  Would you go on Google and second-guess every decision your oncologist made?  Maybe you'd argue with the x-ray technician about your kid's broken arm?

Here are some examples of your “trust”…

The Federal Government:

The CDC:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

The NIH:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research

The FDA:

The same FDA which hasn’t given full approval to the vaccine and only has approved it under emergency authorization?  Which is why I’m assuming the military hasn’t required it’s members to take the shot? 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/01/military-may-revisit-making-covid-19-vaccines-mandatory-after-fda-grants-approval.html

The vaccine manufacturers:

Wait, so we’re now believing everything big pharma says and does? 

https://newrepublic.com/article/153864/innovation-drug-price-myth
 

State governments:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cuomo-lied-and-now-we-know-it/ar-BB1ddSqr
 

The WHO:

A tweet from the World Health Organization, January 14: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/who-does-who-trust/

Medical professionals:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/health-care-workers-say-protests-are-vital-despite-coronavirus-risks-11591790600

As for medical folks on an X-Ray, fortunately my brother literally didn’t trust an initial prognosis after a skiing accident in which x-rays didn’t show any breaks…a week later he went to a sports fitness doctor and was in surgery a few days later.  If you’re not willing to get another opinion on things that concern you/doesn’t sound right, then that’s your call.

My problem with you and others isn’t what you do or don’t do with your own lives, it’s that you negatively judge and put down others who don’t agree with you or see things the same way.  I’m literally fine with people getting the covid shot and also fine with people not getting it.  I also most definitely believe that for the vast majority of people who aren’t old and/or don’t have any underlining health issues that they’ll be just fine if they get covid.  So if those same people don’t feel comfortable getting an experimental vaccine, then why insult them?  And if you think people are killing grandma or whatever and still believe the WHO, then I’m assuming you’re still wearing as mask wherever you go?

And if you blindly trust the government bureaucrats and politicians (yes, even if you’re on their payroll—don’t forget, we’re just the help), then I can’t help you.  I have family who literally believed everything Obama and his administration said, and also have family who believed everything Trump and his administration said…fortunately I’m not in either group.

 

[pawnman]

1 minute ago, HeloDude said:

Here are some examples of your “trust”…

The Federal Government:

The CDC:

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/502890-fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

The NIH:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research

The FDA:

The same FDA which hasn’t given full approval to the vaccine and only has approved it under emergency authorization?  Which is why I’m assuming the military hasn’t required it’s members to take the shot? 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/03/01/military-may-revisit-making-covid-19-vaccines-mandatory-after-fda-grants-approval.html

The vaccine manufacturers:

Wait, so we’re now believing everything big pharma says and does? 

https://newrepublic.com/article/153864/innovation-drug-price-myth
 

State governments:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/cuomo-lied-and-now-we-know-it/ar-BB1ddSqr
 

The WHO:

A tweet from the World Health Organization, January 14: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/who-does-who-trust/

Medical professionals:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/health-care-workers-say-protests-are-vital-despite-coronavirus-risks-11591790600

As for medical folks on an X-Ray, fortunately my brother literally didn’t trust an initial prognosis after a skiing accident in which x-rays didn’t show any breaks…a week later he went to a sports fitness doctor and was in surgery a few days later.  If you’re not willing to get another opinion on things that concern you/doesn’t sound right, then that’s your call.

My problem with you and others isn’t what you do or don’t do with your own lives, it’s that you negatively judge and put down others who don’t agree with you or see things the same way.  I’m literally fine with people getting the covid shot and also fine with people not getting it.  I also most definitely believe that for the vast majority of people who aren’t old and/or don’t have any underlining health issues that they’ll be just fine if they get covid.  So if those same people don’t feel comfortable getting an experimental vaccine, then why insult them?  And if you think people are killing grandma or whatever and still believe the WHO, then I’m assuming you’re still wearing as mask wherever you go?

And if you blindly trust the government bureaucrats and politicians (yes, even if you’re on their payroll—don’t forget, we’re just the help), then I can’t help you.  I have family who literally believed everything Obama and his administration said, and also have family who believed everything Trump and his administration said…fortunately I’m not in either group.

 

So I'll ask again...if you mistrust every official source of information...what data are you using to make your decisions "for the good of myself and my own family?"

[ViperStud]

Wait, so is pawnman actually a nav (WSO, ABM, whatever)?

That would put soooooo much of the recent posts here into perspective. 

[Negatory]

You guys going ad hominem because you don’t want to address the root of the arguments is pathetic.

Joking about Navs is funny is funny if it’s good hearted, you guys are honestly taking it too far and need to stfu. That’s from a fighter pilot, since it matters so much to you guys.

[ViperStud]

Dude, going balls deep into the positives and negatives of the vaccine is pissing in the wind at this point. If you eliminate politics and conspiracy theories alone, 69% of the arguments vanish. 
 

Pawnman deserves some shade here. His recent comments reek of careerism and puffing out his chest (dropping articles on people, “the joke’s on you I made APZ”).  I’ve met careerists before that are good people, they simply value rank highly while being good peeps. Thing is, they’re rare. These recent exchanges haven’t been a good look for him. 

[Guardian]

Seems like the joking about Navs is pretty good hearted here.

And what root of which argument is anyone not answering? So far pawnman is just slinging and not answering questions.

Thanks for your virtue signaling negatory. But it doesn’t really matter if you are a fighter pilot or not. But, that’s cool man. Good for you.

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

So I'll ask again...if you mistrust every official source of information...what data are you using to make your decisions "for the good of myself and my own family?"

You’re missing the point—I don’t think I need the vaccine, based on the data.  My parents thought they did and I supported their decision.  If you think you needed it, awesome—I hope you were able to get it (I imagine you are).

This is the type of data that led me to my decision:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/494670-ninety-six-percent-of-inmates-in-four-state-prisons-who-tested-positive

[HeloDude]

59 minutes ago, Negatory said:

You guys going ad hominem because you don’t want to address the root of the arguments is pathetic.

Joking about Navs is funny is funny if it’s good hearted, you guys are honestly taking it too far and need to stfu. That’s from a fighter pilot, since it matters so much to you guys.

The Nav joke was bc Pawman made the comment to something like  “here’s a pilot who thinks they know more than medical professionals”.  And I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to make a Nav joke when he gave me the opportunity.  
 

As for you being a fighter pilot, that’s cool I guess, but no, it doesn’t matter to me.  But thanks for your service.

[Pooter]

As interesting as this conversation is.. I am neither a fighter pilot nor a nav and I'm curious at what point the quality and quantity of data supporting the efficacy/safety of the covid vaccines could convince you guys to get it.

Is there a benchmark you are looking for it to surpass? A certain number of years without widespread major side effects? A specific number of long term studies that prove its safety? A certain entity whose data you would trust? Would the emergence of a more dangerous covid variant change your calculus?

I'm just wondering, because without a logical, measurable benchmark to evaluate this on it's essentially the same trash argument as the granola munching anti-vax mom crowd...  I'm seeing a lot of similarities "I don't trust anyone, the science was rushed/flawed, the data is doctored" etc..

 

So what data, when, how much, and from whom do you want for it to be good enough?

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, Pooter said:

As interesting as this conversation is.. I am neither a fighter pilot nor a nav and I'm curious at what point the quality and quantity of data supporting the efficacy/safety of the covid vaccines could convince you guys to get it.

Is there a benchmark you are looking for it to surpass? A certain number of years without widespread major side effects? A specific number of long term studies that prove its safety? A certain entity whose data you would trust? Would the emergence of a more dangerous covid variant change your calculus?

I'm just wondering, because without a logical, measurable benchmark to evaluate this on it's essentially the same trash argument as the granola munching anti-vax mom crowd...  I'm seeing a lot of similarities "I don't trust anyone, the science was rushed/flawed, the data is doctored" etc..

 

So what data, when, how much, and from whom do you want for it to be good enough?

They already said the standard. The data has to be strong enough that either the federal government or the manufacturer will accept liability for any short term OR long term side effects of the vaccine. As soon as Phizer says it will pickup payouts to young women that may have fertility issues in 10 years, or young men who may have an increased risk of heart disease in 20 years, I think you'll have a whole bunch of people on board. 

 

As for me, I got the vaccine, mainly because I'm in Europe and I wanted the personal liberty to travel, eat at restaurants, etc... But I totally understand the arguments against getting it. 

[brabus]

@Pooter What Flea said, plus some multi-year data...what are the effects in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years? Not saying I personally need 10 years of data, but a couple years plus the drug companies being 100% legally liable for negative effects might do it. It’s all about risk calculation; if this virus had a 50% mortality rate, decisions would be very different (e.g. risk of longterm unknowns from the vaccine are overshadowed by the risk of death from the virus). I sincerely hope this specific vaccine, and the tech in general, is wildly successful and proves over time to be a great solution into the future...but I don’t personally feel I, or my family, need to be a part of the experiment to find out.

This is pretty simple logic, but not saying there is one right answer/opinion...except that the right one is whatever is right for you and your family. It is not right to force your opinion/personal risk management answer on others (general statement, not directed at you Pooter).

Edited June 29, 2021 by brabus

[Pooter]

7 hours ago, FLEA said:

They already said the standard. The data has to be strong enough that either the federal government or the manufacturer will accept liability for any short term OR long term side effects of the vaccine. As soon as Phizer says it will pickup payouts to young women that may have fertility issues in 10 years, or young men who may have an increased risk of heart disease in 20 years, I think you'll have a whole bunch of people on board. 

 

As for me, I got the vaccine, mainly because I'm in Europe and I wanted the personal liberty to travel, eat at restaurants, etc... But I totally understand the arguments against getting it. 

Okay that's something..

But is that ever going to happen in the real world? What other medications do you know of where the manufacturer/government preemptively accept full financial liability for any/all future side effects?

In this hypothetical scenario, how would you even go about proving the vaccine is causal in a medical problem you have 10 or 20 years down the road? And which side effects should be covered? Also are we going to apply this rule to other medications? I'm sure in a country of 300 million I can find five people who died after taking Advil.  

I'm asking these things because if the line in the sand we're drawing is unrealistic, maybe we need to come up with a better one. 
 

For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Pooter

[FlyingWolf]

46 minutes ago, Pooter said:

For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19. 

You make a great point about the limitations of our knowledge. Humility is key.

Foundational to one's world view is the question how the government should proceed in a low-information scenario. I default towards individual freedom, a lot of people don't, or they overstate the certainty of their position to seize moral authority they really shouldn't.

FWIW, Im vaccinated, but I don't support making it mandatory right now.

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Okay that's something..

But is that ever going to happen in the real world? What other medications do you know of where the manufacturer/government preemptively accept full financial liability for any/all future side effects?

In this hypothetical scenario, how would you even go about proving the vaccine is causal in a medical problem you have 10 or 20 years down the road? And which side effects should be covered? Also are we going to apply this rule to other medications? I'm sure in a country of 300 million I can find five people who died after taking Advil.  

I'm asking these things because if the line in the sand we're drawing is unrealistic, maybe we need to come up with a better one. 
 

For me the calculus is very simple. We don't know the long term effects of the vaccine or covid so there's no point trying to compare two unknown variables. What we do know is the short/medium term effects of both, and even for young healthy people a bad vaccine reaction is orders of magnitude less likely than dying from covid 19. 

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life. 

 

[GrndPndr]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life. 

 

I have my two doses, but I am worried about my balls falling off.  Can I get insurance for that?

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

One thing to point out is most people I've talked to aren't worried about dieing from the vaccine. They are concerned with more subtle side effects like unexplained pre-diabetes in 20 years despite a healthy lifestyle, or reproductive difficulties that increase frustrations with getting pregnant. In either of these cases the right of the individual trump's the public health concerns for right to life because both of those situations are life altering to the quality of a person's life. 

 

Can you point to evidence that suggests any of the COVID vaccines are responsible for pre-diabetes or reproductive issues?  Seems like there are a lot of rumors floating around but very limited solid evidence for serious side effects with the exception of a very few…and those are in line with what is considered acceptable in other vaccines and medications.
 

Also, you may indeed know “very few” people concerned about COVID death, but this is very much a circumstantial statement. Over 600 thousand Americans have died from this disease. That is a staggering number that should be shocking to all Americans. Some of you will say that those numbers are inflated. Ok. Let’s cut the number in half. Still an abysmal result that, in any other circumstance, should have most Americans crying out for and supporting far more aggressive and potentially risky solutions. Many of us here willingly and happily went to war after lunatics killed a few thousand Americans in New York. But half a million dead and we don’t want a shot? Blows my mind. 

[VMFA187]

29 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Over 600 thousand Americans have died from this disease. That is a staggering number that should be shocking to all Americans. Some of you will say that those numbers are inflated. Ok. Let’s cut the number in half. Still an abysmal result that, in any other circumstance, should have most Americans crying out for and supporting far more aggressive and potentially risky solutions. Many of us here willingly and happily went to war after lunatics killed a few thousand Americans in New York. But half a million dead and we don’t want a shot? Blows my mind. 

Of those 600,000, weren't 80-90% obese? Let's not act like the virus targeted everyone equally - And yes I am completely skeptical of that number of 600,000. Did that many people die? Yeah probably, but did that many people actually die from covid? I have doubts.

Maybe it is "risky" living an unhealthy life every single day of one's life? Maybe to save fat people we just simply don't let them order certain foods and drinks at restaurants and grocery stores, I mean its for the betterment of everyone - Right? Many people seems willing to force me not to have a choice...

 How many people does obesity kill every year? Probably more than 600,000 - Why isn't there a war on obesity? Or what if the increasingly likely probability that it was released from China, and covered up, caused a majority of those deaths? What then?

 

[bfargin]

43 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Also, you may indeed know “very few” people concerned about COVID death, but this is very much a circumstantial statement. Over 600 thousand Americans have died from this disease. That is a staggering number that should be shocking to all Americans. Some of you will say that those numbers are inflated. Ok. Let’s cut the number in half. Still an abysmal result that, in any other circumstance, should have most Americans crying out for and supporting far more aggressive and potentially risky solutions. Many of us here willingly and happily went to war after lunatics killed a few thousand Americans in New York. But half a million dead and we don’t want a shot? Blows my mind. 

Not to be argumentative and I know it's a serious illness to many  but, No, 600K did not die from Covid19. If you're going to call out people then be more honest in your claims as well.