COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[FLEA]

17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Medical experts can't say with 100% certainty that any treatment, ever will not have long-term side-effects.  You could develop side-effects from taking Tylenol.  But the probability is extremely low.

How long do you want this vaccine studied before you'll take it?  5 years?  10 years? 30 years?

How long did we study the anthrax vaccine before that was administered?  

What were the long-term studies on the polio vaccine in 1955?  Can you imagine if parents back then had the same reaction to "no long-term studies" as you're spouting right now?

 

1.) Anthrax; over 100 years. Dozens of GAO reports still report long term and dangerous side effects from the modern version which was researched in 1955 and not forcefully administered until 1997. 

2.) Polio; Over 20 years before trials on the modern solution began in 1955. Tragically trials in the 1930s killed or paralyzed dozens of people including children. 

3.) COVID - 1 year of data now. Great job. 

 

You have to be trolling at this point, you use an example of two of the most dangerous and controversial vaccine programs ever administered. 

[FLEA]

2 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So one virus caused death and paralysis...so we rushed a vaccine.  And now we have a virus that causes death and long-term heart problems...but there's no parallels at all?

It makes less sense that being completely anti-vaxx because all the side-effects you're worried about are already side-effects from the MMR, flu, polio, or TB vaccines.  Which, if you're in the military, you already took.  But you're wringing your hands over a vaccine that's been distributed to over a billion people worldwide with side-effect rates far lower than the rates of major issues from covid, yes, even for healthy young studs in the military. 

Is your complaint just the EUA?  So as soon as it gets fully approved (likely in the next few months), you'll suddenly be on-board?

Numerous false statements in this post. Polio emerged in the 1800s and the vaccine wasnt developed until the 1950s. There was no rush on the vaccine. Furthermore your falsely eluding that COVID has as much transmissibility and morbidity as polio which it does not. Additionally, taking vaccines with certain side effects does not remove the probabilities of experiencing those side effects from other vaccines. 

[pawnman]

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Numerous false statements in this post. Polio emerged in the 1800s and the vaccine wasnt developed until the 1950s. There was no rush on the vaccine. Furthermore your falsely eluding that COVID has as much transmissibility and morbidity as polio which it does not. Additionally, taking vaccines with certain side effects does not remove the probabilities of experiencing those side effects from other vaccines. 

And how long was the vaccine tested before it was pushed to the public?  That was the point.

But I  seriously hope all ypu anti-vaxxers stick to your principles over your paychecks and bail when it's made mandatory for the military. 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by pawnman

[FLEA]

9 minutes ago, pawnman said:

And how long was the vaccine tested before it was pushed to the public?  That was the point.

But I  seriously hope all ypu anti-vaxxers stick to your principles over your paychecks and bail when it's made mandatory for the military. 

 

Reference my earlier post. 20 years. 

[pawnman]

4 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Reference my earlier post. 20 years. 

So you'll be willing to take the covid vaccine sometime in 2041?

Perfect.

[FLEA]

Just now, pawnman said:

So you'll be willing to take the covid vaccine sometime in 2041?

Perfect.

I've already had it actually. 

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I've already had it actually. 

You're spending a lot of time arguing against it for someone who already got it.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

You're spending a lot of time arguing against it for someone who already got it.

Yup. Maybe you should think on that a bit. 

[DUNBAR]

If we could get some statements from a random assortment of people not opting for the vaccine, it may sound something like this.  I've included the standard response.

"I'm currently trying to get pregnant, and have strong concerns if now is the time to be taking an experimental vaccine."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I've already had COVID, and I think many medical experts agree that getting the vaccine after having COVID is not only unnecessary, but it might be dangerous.  I'd like to see some more research."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I'm young and healthy.  I've carefully studied the hospitalization and mortality rates for COVID in my demographic(<.1%), and I think the risks of an experimental vaccine outweigh the benefits.

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I spent 25 years in the military and fought in two wars.  I've been shot up with so much crazy crap like smallpox and anthrax that I refuse to be forced to take another vaccine now that I'm retired."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I'm usually not a conspiracy enthusiast, but I'm familiar with the thalidomide birth defects.  I feel like there have been countless episodes in which governments have thought something was safe, and it was not.  I am very nervous about taking new drugs, and I don't want to."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"My sibling had a horrific reaction to the vaccine and had to be hospitalized. Since we share so much DNA, I'm very reluctant to take this vaccine."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"Our government has been contradicting themselves about COVID incessantly.  I have no reason to believe that they're right about vaccine efficacy and safety, considering they've been wrong about everything else."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

[pawnman]

19 minutes ago, DUNBAR said:

If we could get some statements from a random assortment of people not opting for the vaccine, it may sound something like this.  I've included the standard response.

"I'm currently trying to get pregnant, and have strong concerns if now is the time to be taking an experimental vaccine."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I've already had COVID, and I think many medical experts agree that getting the vaccine after having COVID is not only unnecessary, but it might be dangerous.  I'd like to see some more research."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I'm young and healthy.  I've carefully studied the hospitalization and mortality rates for COVID in my demographic(<.1%), and I think the risks of an experimental vaccine outweigh the benefits.

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I spent 25 years in the military and fought in two wars.  I've been shot up with so much crazy crap like smallpox and anthrax that I refuse to be forced to take another vaccine now that I'm retired."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"I'm usually not a conspiracy enthusiast, but I'm familiar with the thalidomide birth defects.  I feel like there have been countless episodes in which governments have thought something was safe, and it was not.  I am very nervous about taking new drugs, and I don't want to."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"My sibling had a horrific reaction to the vaccine and had to be hospitalized. Since we share so much DNA, I'm very reluctant to take this vaccine."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

"Our government has been contradicting themselves about COVID incessantly.  I have no reason to believe that they're right about vaccine efficacy and safety, considering they've been wrong about everything else."

Response: "Go to hell you demented anti-vaxxer.  When our glorious leaders mandate the vaccine and passports, you will be utterly removed from society."

Much like all the anti-vaxx responses can be boiled down to "I trust anecdotes and random YouTube videos more than medical experts."

[DUNBAR]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

Much like all the anti-vaxx responses can be boiled down to "I trust anecdotes and random YouTube videos more than medical experts."

If you can't trust Anthony Fauci, who can you trust in this world?  

Bottom line, if you don't do exactly what the government tells you to do under any circumstances, you're an idiot.  

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to inventory my arctic survival equipment.  In the late 1970s the US government published response plans for the upcoming ice age, and I don't want to be caught off guard.

[pawnman]

6 minutes ago, DUNBAR said:

If you can't trust Anthony Fauci, who can you trust in this world?  

Bottom line, if you don't do exactly what the government tells you to do under any circumstances, you're an idiot.  

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to inventory my arctic survival equipment.  In the late 1970s the US government published response plans for the upcoming ice age, and I don't want to be caught off guard.

And where are you collecting the data you are using to make your personal risk assessments?  Can't be the CDC, FDA, or WHO...because you don't trust any of them.

Random hoard of anti-vaxx protestors on Google?  Are they more credible to you than an agency with $6.5 billion and a mandate to control diseases?

 

[Alpharatz]

i'm getting a real bad feeling about the next few months as fall and winter set in and schools re-start and counter to obvious evidence a large cohort still refuses the vaccine.  And a large part of the world is still awaiting supplies.  This bug could have been stomped flat but as usual a subset of the population won't cooperate.  One of my pals has had every bugshot known to the military but squawks about one more.."it's made of poison and carries micro-chips".  It's a volunteer military but these are the volunteers?  You gotta be pretty old to remember when the airlines furloughed about every other pilot and guys were begging for alert lines...fighter drags..C-5 and 141 cargo jobs and temps with the FAA.  I hear that yet again the airline biz is starting to fade.  Fortunately a lot of the true business leaders are demanding that employees get the shot or adios.  You have to believe that airline CEO's will be right in there.  Who wants a herd of Captains and stews and rampies spreading the bug around the world OR bringing it back as some horrid mutation?  Then all bets are off...Just asked the wife to begin stocking up again....Maybe this go around a heady little muscatel....

[DUNBAR]

Sigh.  I'm starting to fall into the trap.  "Life is short, so above all, spend as much time as possible arguing politics with strangers on the internet."

I'm not changing your mind, and vice-versa.  The best I can hope for is that you show a little bit more sympathy and respect to the millions of Americans who are faced with very difficult decisions about this vaccine, especially when the "expert" track record on this virus has been so abysmal.  Your position is that if anyone disagrees with you on the vaccination issue, they must be a bunch of knuckle-dragging, conspiracy-obsessed morons, and it simply isn't true.

My entire family has been vaccinated, but I strongly believe the utter destruction of civil liberties, and the trampling of the covenant between the governing and the governed is a much greater threat to this nation that a virus with an astronomically high survival rate.

13 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Much like all the anti-vaxx responses can be boiled down to "I trust anecdotes and random YouTube videos more than medical experts."

If you can't trust Anthony Fauci, who can you trust in this world?  

Bottom line, if you don't do exactly what the government tells you to do under any circumstances, you're an idiot.  

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to inventory my arctic survival equipment.  In the late 1970s the US government published response plans for the upcoming ice age, and I don't want to be caught off guard.

[ecugringo]

Not wanting to join an argument.  I'm stuck in the middle on this.

1. Its becoming more clear that the virus escaped from a lab.

2. 2-3 months into this there already is a vaccine ready for testing?

3. This tech for the vaccine has been around for 20+ years but this is the first go at it with a vaccine

4. If the tech has been around so long why dont they use MRNA for the Flu?  They can develop a covid shot but not malaria?  or other viruses?

5. teh covid stats are of 100 ppl, 60 won't know they have it, 28 mild symptoms, 12 hospitalized, 1 might die.  Now we have breakthrough cases....is hte vaccine even working?

6. there was a mom in her early 30's now paralyzed after the shot and I guess a few others.  Most likely would have been fine having covid.  Not worth it to them.

7.  Now the Lamda variant in S. America escapes hte vaccine.

8.  the media has made this a cash cow selling death.  More ppl are dying of murder than covid in major cities now.

 

All that being said one can easily justify being hesitant vs the vaccine.  Im glad its available and if i were older id be on it.  

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

I've already had it actually. 

Found your vaccination card.

[ecugringo]

Oh and I dont think we can just stamp this out.  Look at Australia, Israel and China.

Israel is having breakthrough cases, still not clear as to what that means but they are looking for a booster.

Australia is about as locked down as you can get but still cases pop up.

Read China is testing all 11mm ppl in Wuhan again after its found again?

[Prozac]

Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know.

https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine

Interesting quote from the article: 

According to the Center for Countering Digital Hate, professional anti-vaccine activists organized a meeting in the fall of 2020 to create messaging that would decrease acceptance of COVID-19 vaccines once available. These organized efforts aim to move people to extreme positions about vaccines — that is to say, from having legitimate questions about vaccines to becoming “anti-vaccine,” refusing all vaccines and believing conspiracy theories and false narratives. In some cases, individuals in these groups do not believe the science, and in other cases, they are seeking to profit from this hesitancy by encouraging the use of other products to “protect” against COVID-19.

[ViperMan]

Uhhhhhggggg. Reading the last few pages of this thread is a bunch of tiresome strawmen and red herring. A bunch of people trying to convince others' that they have the correct version of "because X".

News flash: the ground truth, fundamental point is that you have rights in this country. One of those is the right to bodily autonomy. Notwithstanding military exceptions, if you don't want to take the vaccine for a valid or invalid reason or no reason at all (spite), that is your RIGHT. You don't need a because. No one gets to fucking tell you different around these United States. It's that simple.

Edited August 3, 2021 by ViperMan

[TheNewGazmo]

I find it ironic that a lot of the same anti-vaxxers willing to claim "my-body-my-right" are against abortion. Isn't it the same concept or are there exceptions in the bible thumping universe?

[ViperMan]

2 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

I find it ironic that a lot of the same anti-vaxxers willing to claim "my-body-my-right" are against abortion. Isn't it the same concept or are their exceptions in the bible thumping universe?

Without resorting to bible thumping, do you not recognize or understand that a pregnant woman is two separate (albeit connected) beings with different DNA? A person can be charged with double murder if they kill a pregnant woman. At the very least, we can at least agree that our laws are schizophrenic on the issue (at best).

Conflating these two issues is a stretch. And throwing the "bible" poop at the wall in an attempt to relegate the view to a simple-minded, and/or limited to religious objection is side-stepping the actual issue. My gut tells me that abortion is wrong - at the very least becomes more wrong the further into a pregnancy a woman gets. I don't need to appeal to any book or religion to arrive at that conclusion. Yours is the same argument anti-gun nuts make when they "ok" gun use for hunting or sporting. Which, sorry to say, is not what the 2nd amendment is about.

[Shakermaker]

8 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

I find it ironic that a lot of the same anti-vaxxers willing to claim "my-body-my-right" are against abortion. Isn't it the same concept or are their exceptions in the bible thumping universe?

Concept is indeed the same.. so is it valid or not?

[DUNBAR]

33 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Feature Article: Long-term Side Effects of COVID-19 Vaccine? What We Know.

https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine

Interesting quote from the article: 

According to the Center for Countering Digital Hate, professional anti-vaccine activists organized a meeting in the fall of 2020 to create messaging that would decrease acceptance of COVID-19 vaccines once available. These organized efforts aim to move people to extreme positions about vaccines — that is to say, from having legitimate questions about vaccines to becoming “anti-vaccine,” refusing all vaccines and believing conspiracy theories and false narratives. In some cases, individuals in these groups do not believe the science, and in other cases, they are seeking to profit from this hesitancy by encouraging the use of other products to “protect” against COVID-19.

Actual footage of the professional anti-vaccine activists.  (professionals mind you, not amateur anti-vaccine activists).

 

[tac airlifter]

43 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

I find it ironic that a lot of the same anti-vaxxers willing to claim "my-body-my-right" are against abortion. Isn't it the same concept or are there exceptions in the bible thumping universe?
 

Irony is a two-way street: lots of people wearing pussy hats and screaming about a women’s right to make her own choices regarding abortion (despite what the father thinks) who are now 100% good forcing an injection into women concerned about second order fertility effects.  Disgusting.

I like the red herring spear at bible thumpers.  As if they had anything to do with this conversation.  Some people just love tyranny, and hate debate.  

[Prozac]

58 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Irony is a two-way street: lots of people wearing pussy hats and screaming about a women’s right to make her own choices regarding abortion (despite what the father thinks) who are now 100% good forcing an injection into women concerned about second order fertility effects.  Disgusting.

I like the red herring spear at bible thumpers.  As if they had anything to do with this conversation.  Some people just love tyranny, and hate debate.  

Who is 100% good forcing a vaccine on anyone? Honest question. There are a lot of us that believe the only way out of this pandemic on anything resembling an acceptable timeline is through mass vaccination. Doesn’t mean I’m for government mandated vaccines. Military is a different story. As mentioned by an earlier poster, regardless of any efficacy argument, if I’m senior leadership I want my military population as close to 100% vaccinated if only for the simple fact that it will make global deployment and travel that much easier. What I absolutely do support is any employer’s right to require their workers to be vaccinated. That is backed up by the law and a completely different animal than government mandated jabs.