COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[TheNewGazmo]

Here's a new research paper with data fresh out of Tel Aviv, it's a massive study comparing natural to vaccine-induced immunity:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

 
This is the largest real-world observational study comparing natural immunity, gained through previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to vaccine-induced immunity, afforded by the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. Our large cohort, enabled by Israel’s rapid rollout of the mass-vaccination campaign, allowed us to investigate the risk for additional infection – either a breakthrough infection in vaccinated individuals or reinfection in previously infected ones – over a longer period than thus far described.
Our analysis demonstrates that SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant for a symptomatic disease as well.
Broadening the research question to examine the extent of the phenomenon, we allowed the infection to occur at any time between March 2020 to February 2021 (when different variants were dominant in Israel), compared to vaccination only in January and February 2021. Although the results could suggest waning natural immunity against the Delta variant, those vaccinated are still at a 5.96-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection and at a 7.13-fold increased risk for symptomatic disease compared to those previously infected. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalization compared to those who were previously infected.
Individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 seem to gain additional protection from a subsequent single-dose vaccine regimen. Though this finding corresponds to previous reports24,25, we could not demonstrate significance in our cohort.
The advantageous protection afforded by natural immunity that this analysis demonstrates could be explained by the more extensive immune response to the SARS-CoV-2 proteins than that generated by the anti-spike protein immune activation conferred by the vaccine26,27. However, as a correlate of protection is yet to be proven1,28, including the role of B-Cell29 and T-cell immunity30,31, this remains a hypothesis.
Our study has several limitations. First, as the Delta variant was the dominant strain in Israel during the outcome period, the decreased long-term protection of the vaccine compared to that afforded by previous infection cannot be ascertained against other strains. Second, our analysis addressed protection afforded solely by the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, and therefore does not address other vaccines or long-term protection following a third dose, of which the deployment is underway in Israel. Additionally, as this is an observational real-world study, where PCR screening was not performed by protocol, we might be underestimating asymptomatic infections, as these individuals often do not get tested.
Lastly, although we controlled for age, sex, and region of residence, our results might be affected by differences between the groups in terms of health behaviors (such as social distancing and mask wearing), a possible confounder that was not assessed. As individuals with chronic illness were primarily vaccinated between December and February, confounding by indication needs to be considered; however, adjusting for obesity, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, hypertension, chronic kidney disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, cancer and immunosuppression had only a small impact on the estimate of effect as compared to the unadjusted OR. Therefore, residual confounding by unmeasured factors is unlikely.
This analysis demonstrated that natural immunity affords longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization due to the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Notably, individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the BNT162b2 vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant. The long-term protection provided by a third dose, recently administered in Israel, is still unknown.
 

 
This explains the huge spike and then huge drop in cases in India this past May. India, at the time, had barely anyone vaccinated. They suffered huge amounts of infections and death, but their case numbers are almost down to nothing. Herd inmunity?

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, Bobsan said:

Here's a new research paper with data fresh out of Tel Aviv, it's a massive study comparing natural to vaccine-induced immunity:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

 

So this seems to suggest that getting vaccinated even after an infection is better than just getting infected and hoping for the best...am I reading that correctly?

[bennynova]

7 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So this seems to suggest that getting vaccinated even after an infection is better than just getting infected and hoping for the best...am I reading that correctly?

 That’s one way to look at it.   If you are peddling the jab.  
 

the jab wears off.  It’s meant to keep you on the Pfizer tit.   Here immunity would be best had by everyone gaining natural immunity.   But now, instead, we have vaccinated people running around with minimal symptoms but still able to spread the virus.  
 

Trojan horse!!

[Bobsan]

59 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So this seems to suggest that getting vaccinated even after an infection is better than just getting infected and hoping for the best...am I reading that correctly?

Negative GR:

 

Quote

This analysis demonstrated that natural immunity affords longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization due to the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.

The results suggested that immunity from getting the virus and still being unvaccinated is a lot better than never having been infected and getting two pfizer shots.

Quote

SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant for a symptomatic disease as well. 

If your first exposure to virus immunity was 6-9 months ago (real virus or vaccine), you're 13x more likely to get infected by the Delta variant if you had the two shots and never had the virus. And more likely to develop covid in that group.

Quote

we allowed the infection to occur at any time between March 2020 to February 2021 (when different variants were dominant in Israel), compared to vaccination only in January and February 2021. Although the results could suggest waning natural immunity against the Delta variant, those vaccinated are still at a 5.96-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection and at a 7.13-fold increased risk for symptomatic disease compared to those previously infected. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalization compared to those who were previously infected.

If you had the virus any time in the past 16-19 months and you're unvaccinated, your immunity is not as strong anymore but you'd still be 6x less likely to get infected again and 7x less likely to develop covid than if you had the two shots (in the past 6-9 months) and never had the virus. And less likely to be hospitalized.

Quote

Individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 seem to gain additional protection from a subsequent single-dose vaccine regimen. Though this finding corresponds to previous reports24,25, we could not demonstrate significance in our cohort. 

And without statistical significance, they think that having had the virus followed by a single shot gives slightly better immunity than the natural one from prior infection. Again, much better than never having been infected and getting the two shots.

No data on third shot immunity yet.

 

So, for those who had the virus and didn't get the vaccine, you might be in a great position right now. Biologically speaking, at least...

Edited August 26, 2021 by Bobsan
6-9

[ecugringo]

35 minutes ago, bennynova said:

 That’s one way to look at it.   If you are peddling the jab.  
 

the jab wears off.  It’s meant to keep you on the Pfizer tit.   Here immunity would be best had by everyone gaining natural immunity.   But now, instead, we have vaccinated people running around with minimal symptoms but still able to spread the virus.  
 

Trojan horse!!

Has anyone even asked how long the booster lasts?

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, bennynova said:

 That’s one way to look at it.   If you are peddling the jab.  
 

the jab wears off.  It’s meant to keep you on the Pfizer tit.   Here immunity would be best had by everyone gaining natural immunity.   But now, instead, we have vaccinated people running around with minimal symptoms but still able to spread the virus.  
 

Trojan horse!!

So the best course of action would be to have Covid patients cough on everyone they meet until everyone has gotten it?

[ecugringo]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/one-third-americans-were-infected-150000744.html

 

30% of US had covid by Dec 2020?

 

[bennynova]

9 hours ago, ecugringo said:

Has anyone even asked how long the booster lasts?

No one knows.  Because just like the vaccinations, the booster testing hasn’t finished (or started) yet either.  
 

[bennynova]

8 hours ago, pawnman said:

So the best course of action would be to have Covid patients cough on everyone they meet until everyone has gotten it?

Probably, yes.   Or we can continue to do whatever is it that we are doing...every 4 to 6 months for the rest of our lives??

[VMFA187]

9 hours ago, pawnman said:

So the best course of action would be to have Covid patients cough on everyone they meet until everyone has gotten it?

Only the strong survive. 

[Guest]

On 8/25/2021 at 1:31 PM, SpeedOfHeat said:

(I for one will refuse a booster for as long as it’s my choice.  I played along and got the initial two, but I’m not going to keep playing this game and being a pin cushion when I personally have no fear of Rona and still have to wear a mask regardless.  Fool me once….)

Why would you do that? You're not a crazy CONSPIRACY anti-vaxxer... are you? You should Follow The Science™️. Don't ask questions about it, FOLLOW it.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210826_24/

LMAO Japbros have found metal in the sealed Moderna shots.

On 8/25/2021 at 1:42 PM, Alpharatz said:

Now the local farm supply places are selling horse de-wormer..it's the latest on the interweb...Would you fly with a dude/dudette who rocks with Ivermectin?!  We had a squadron reactionary or three..but NOTHING like this...

Take a listen to this C-SPAN coverage of this Pulmonologist talking about Ivermectin's effectiveness, it's a 10 minute video, very passionate physician: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4930160/user-clip-dr-pierre-kory-senate-hearing-ivermectin-100-cure-covid-19

Japan is also giving Ivermectin the go ahead for treating covid-19. Sure it's comical on a surface level to label people buying "horse paste" as being stupid, but those same name callers will wig out if you show them the ingredients on the tube, Ivermectin. Yes there's additives and such in there that people should know aren't intended for humans, but adjusted for weight dosage, may or may not cause issues. The point is, these people would not be buying horse paste ivermectin if they could get Ivermectin over the counter or prescribed by a physician willing to do so, but physician's are too scared to be labeled "anti-science" for thinking outside the approved paradigm. Ivermectin has also been around for decades with safe research results on humans. It's because the FDA has not "approved" it for human use to treat covid-19. Interesting how it's so cheap though compared to the other stuff Big Pharma. comes up with. India also pushed Ivermectin months ago and saw great results

22 hours ago, bennynova said:

Probably, yes.   Or we can continue to do whatever is it that we are doing...every 4 to 6 months for the rest of our lives??

Coming full circle to what should've been done to begin with to get through this virus. Except in this timeline, Big Pharma. got some fat pockets, and we lost a lot of freedoms many take for granted. Maybe we'll get those freedoms back? Right guys?

@Bobsan I like your post; it's almost as if any layman could tell that natural immunity is better than lab made. What is it, I've read 24 pieces of the virus is what your body learns of when infected and beats it, compared to the one (spike protein) it learns with the injection? It was something like that. Hilarious that so many Followed The Science straight into the trash can. I don't mean malice towards them though; hopefully they'll start to question why they were lied to, and who lied to them.

Edited August 27, 2021 by dogfish78

[Negatory]

Ivermectin, huh? We’ve already been through this with hydroxychloriquine. In case you’re wondering, yes, there were passionate “physicians” touting hydroxychloriquine in congressional hearings last year as well. People like you are convinced the government is covering up a treatment in a giant conspiracy. It’s almost funny to even think that the government is capable of that, but I digress.

What happened? People took hydroxychloriquine anyways. Brazil prescribed it. Some random doctors went on talk radio to “expose the truth” about this miracle drug. In our case, it made it through the misinformation chain all the way through Fox News up to our previous President. Still with no evidence.

A year later, there is now definitive proof that hydroxychloriquine provides no benefit, just as doctors said. Some studies show that it actually is associated with worse outcomes. Turns out being a conspiracy theorist with little actual scientific proof doesn’t work. News coverage and people pushing that treatment silently died out on OAN and Fox, weird, huh?

Ivermectin is not a secret conspiracy miracle drug that is being ignored. There is a very low chance that it may be helpful - which hasn’t been proven whatsoever. You want to know what’s been proven via millions of people in large studies to combat the effects of COVID? Vaccines. Yes, natural immunity is a thing as well, I’m not debating that.

Realize that doctors and researchers are not all government shills. They are on the range of political spectrums, and, by and large, they want to actually help people. Put a little more trust in your fellow American.

Also, your insistence on calling an mRNA vaccine “gene therapy” seriously reduces your credibility. It’s honestly almost impossible to listen past there. It’s a talk radio tactic, just like calling Obama “BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA” every time they said his name from 2008 until now, but it doesn’t make your or their argument any more true.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL1N2PH16N

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/amp/

https://www.genomicseducation.hee.nhs.uk/blog/why-mrna-vaccines-arent-gene-therapies/

Yes, I have already accepted that you think that webmd, Reuters, Forbes, and the NHS are all part of the deep state conspiracy to hide the fact that mRNA vaccines are IN FACT secret government gene therapy.

[arg]

2 hours ago, Negatory said:

Ivermectin, huh? We’ve already been through this with hydroxychloriquine. In case you’re wondering, yes, there were passionate “physicians” touting hydroxychloriquine in congressional hearings last year as well. People like you are convinced the government is covering up a treatment in a giant conspiracy. It’s almost funny to even think that the government is capable of that, but I digress.

What happened? People took hydroxychloriquine anyways. Brazil prescribed it. Some random doctors went on talk radio to “expose the truth” about this miracle drug. In our case, it made it through the misinformation chain all the way through Fox News up to our previous President. Still with no evidence.

A year later, there is now definitive proof that hydroxychloriquine provides no benefit, just as doctors said. Some studies show that it actually is associated with worse outcomes. Turns out being a conspiracy theorist with little actual scientific proof doesn’t work. News coverage and people pushing that treatment silently died out on OAN and Fox, weird, huh?

Ivermectin is not a secret conspiracy miracle drug that is being ignored. There is a very low chance that it may be helpful - which hasn’t been proven whatsoever. You want to know what’s been proven via millions of people in large studies to combat the effects of COVID? Vaccines. Yes, natural immunity is a thing as well, I’m not debating that.

Realize that doctors and researchers are not all government shills. They are on the range of political spectrums, and, by and large, they want to actually help people. Put a little more trust in your fellow American.

Also, your insistence on calling an mRNA vaccine “gene therapy” seriously reduces your credibility. It’s honestly almost impossible to listen past there. It’s a talk radio tactic, just like calling Obama “BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA” every time they said his name from 2008 until now, but it doesn’t make your or their argument any more true.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL1N2PH16N

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/03/17/covid-19-mrna-vaccines-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/amp/

https://www.genomicseducation.hee.nhs.uk/blog/why-mrna-vaccines-arent-gene-therapies/

Yes, I have already accepted that you think that webmd, Reuters, Forbes, and the NHS are all part of the deep state conspiracy to hide the fact that mRNA vaccines are IN FACT secret government gene therapy.

My anecdotal story, stepson, 35yo, got the covid  along with pneumonia. Wife asked the doc about ivermectin. Doc says "Oh no that's for animals we don't give it to humans". Fast forward and he winds up in the hospital in Gulf Breeze FL with a different doc. Wife asked new doc about ivermectin. She says "Oh yeah I've prescribed it for him". Stepson gets seven pills. He said within a couple of hours he started feeling better. Still spent a couple more days in the hospital. Funny how two doctors can be 180 out on medication.

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, arg said:

My anecdotal story, stepson, 35yo, got the covid  along with pneumonia. Wife asked the doc about ivermectin. Doc says "Oh no that's for animals we don't give it to humans". Fast forward and he winds up in the hospital in Gulf Breeze FL with a different doc. Wife asked new doc about ivermectin. She says "Oh yeah I've prescribed it for him". Stepson gets seven pills. He said within a couple of hours he started feeling better. Still spent a couple more days in the hospital. Funny how two doctors can be 180 out on medication.

Just don't take the version made for horses.

[Guardian]

It’s palatable for humans

[brabus]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

Just don't take the version made for horses.

[Prozac]

I’m sorry, but the ivermectin thing has me scratching my head. I’m all for any treatment that can reduce the severity of COVID-19 symptoms & help our society return to normal. Is ivermectin such a treatment? Well, maybe, but just like any other drug, it has to be tested and proven to be safe and effective in that role before it can be approved. As of right now, the FDA does not recommend ivermectin be used to treat Covid-19: 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here: Many people who do not want to get a vaccine that has been fully approved by the FDA because they feel the testing was rushed are now willing to put a drug in their bodies that has not been tested or approved for the purpose of fighting this disease? Not only that, but some who’s doctors are not willing to prescribe this dubious drug are willing to get it from the feed store and figure out their own dosage? There seems to be a pretty big disconnect in the logic that would lead one to decline an approved and effective treatment in favor of an unapproved and questionably effective one. Let’s let professionals, you know, TEST these drugs before we put them in our body. I kinda thought that sort of thing was a big deal to the Tucker crowd. 

[Negatory]

It’s hilarious how the antivax folks have been convinced they need to be against experimental vaccines politically (although that experiment just ended)… and instead put their faith in highly experimental unvetted glove save treatments.

It’s pure dissension that is bred by social media and a combination of malicious and incompetent actors. If you’re in this camp, ask yourself if you think 2 years ago you would have been anti science? Would 2 year ago you have turned down an American made vaccine developed to combat a global pandemic that killed 650k Americans? The answer is probably no. So why is it happening?

Bad actors are playing with you and the preying on the weaknesses of a “free society” when it comes to disinformation. Dogfish78 is an example of someone who, at best, is a victim to those disinformation efforts. At worst, he’s actively and intentionally trying to propagate them.

At first, posts of people being hurt by disinformation made me scratch my head, now they just make me sad. Below is just a small sample of the last couple of weeks. A reminder that, statistically, had they been vaccinated, all of these Americans would have lived.

 

 

https://www.rawstory.com/vaccine-hesitancy-2654291616/

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-mask-freedom-rally-045722778.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr

https://www.unilad.co.uk/news/anti-vaxxer-dies-of-covid-days-after-saying-theres-nothing-to-be-afraid-of/

[busdriver]

18 minutes ago, Negatory said:

It’s pure dissension that is bred by social media and a combination of malicious and incompetent actors.

Bad actors are playing with you and the preying on the weaknesses of a “free society” when it comes to disinformation. 

This isn't driven by malicious conspiracy driven mustache twirling "bad actors."

This is the mob driving the politicians.  Born of the internet and social media.  There are analogous crazy theories on the cultural left. 

But you're right that it's dissention.

Read "The Revolt of the Public"

[Negatory]

54 minutes ago, busdriver said:

This isn't driven by malicious conspiracy driven mustache twirling "bad actors."

This is the mob driving the politicians.  Born of the internet and social media.  There are analogous crazy theories on the cultural left. 

But you're right that it's dissention.

Read "The Revolt of the Public"

Some of it actually is, though. The sooner we all recognize this, the better we will be able to come together as a team to combat it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jul/16/us-politics-live-covid-coronavirus-wildfires-biden-latest

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/russia-china-sow-disinformation-undermine-trust-western-vaccines-eu-report-says-2021-04-28/

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/chinese-spam-network-aims-to-discredit-u-s-covid-vaccine-and-response-report-finds/

[HeloDude]

Remember when “medical professionals” were against protests in the early-mid spring of 2020 if the protests were about reopening businesses, anti-lockdown, etc…

But then these same “medical professionals” just a month or so later were supportive of protests for BLM after Floyd was killed…

Pepperidge Farms remembers.

[Negatory]

Remember when there were tons of headlines and news stories about democrats regularly dying from the vaccine, because they were incorrectly and wrongly convinced it was safe by a disingenuous disinformation campaign?

…

Wait, did I mix up how that went down?

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Negatory said:

Some of it actually is, though....

Those actors are taking advantage of something that already existed.  The change dates back about a decade, to the introduction of smart phones really.

Arab spring, yellow jackets, indignados, occupy wall street, original tea party, etc.

The distrust of traditional institutions of power pairs with their inability to hide or spin their failures to live up to promises of competency in the social media/smart phone age.  "Combatting it" will be a matter of those institutions learning to deal with the new reality.

Again, I highly recommend reading "The Revolt of the Public."  Martin Gurri, a former CIA analyst, released it in 2014 and it is remarkably prescient.  

[HeloDude]

4 minutes ago, Negatory said:

Remember when there were tons of headlines and news stories about democrats regularly dying from the vaccine, because they were incorrectly and wrongly convinced it was safe by a disingenuous disinformation campaign?

…

Wait, did I mix up how that went down?

If you were trying to provide a counter argument, resubmit and try again.

My argument proves that “medical professionals” will change their medical opinions based on their own emotions towards a given subject.  It’s a shame that this is true.

[Negatory]

Your argument incorrectly categorizes everyone in medicine into the same bucket, from the whackos pushing crystal healing to the PhDs at the CDC. No matter what, “they” are the “medical professionals.” The truth is the folks that were saying that protests for BLM were not super spreader events - purely because it fit the liberal political agenda - do not represent the wide body of science. Pretty sure there are very few papers out there that would corroborate MSNBCs claims that protests are no big deal.

Remember when Fauci bought off on the liberal agenda and said that the BLM protests were okay? Oh, right. He didn’t. He said “avoid crowds of any type.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/healthcare/509961-jim-jordan-presses-fauci-on-protests-covid-19%3famp

You provided an absurd overgeneralization that wasn’t related to the discussion at hand, I provided an absurd point back.

Trying to discredit scientists by cherry-picking idiots that went on CNN for political gain is disingenuous. For the record, I am equally as disgusted by how liberal media - not scientists - treated the BLM protests in regards to COVID as I am by the current conservative media is in regards to the vaccine.