COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[pawnman]

5 hours ago, Guardian said:

What I have read says the vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting infected. That it just lessens the severity of the symptoms.

Really? Where are those studies? Because the ones I've seen show your chances of getting Covid after the vaccine go down between 60-80%.

[Guardian]

Drinking on day off. So I’ll look for more data later. But here’s a quick anecdotal non referenced or filled with studies talk by a doc. So take it for what it’s worth.

https://rumble.com/vkxexq-there-will-be-no-song-tonight....html

[Kenny Powers]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

Really? Where are those studies? Because the ones I've seen show your chances of getting Covid after the vaccine go down between 60-80%.

So, where are the studies?

The problem with all these "studies" is there are too many unknowns outside the control of the study and it's very difficult to come to a logical conclusion based off the data presented.

Last time the country was this divided over something we ended up with this...

 

 

[pawnman]

1 minute ago, Kenny Powers said:

So, where are the studies?

The problem with all these "studies" is there are too many unknowns outside the control of the study and it's very difficult to come to a logical conclusion based off the data presented.

Last time the country was this divided over something we ended up with this...

 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/getting-a-pfizer-or-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-can-drop-your-risk-for-infection-by-91

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/english-study-finds-50-60-reduced-risk-covid-double-vaccinated-2021-08-03/

[Kenny Powers]

So, my point above isn't to be political but to prove how divided our country is over this.

It's odd to me that half the people in this country are for the vaccine and half are against it. That really speaks volumes regarding the trust our citizens have in our government.

[Kenny Powers]

2 minutes ago, pawnman said:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/getting-a-pfizer-or-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-can-drop-your-risk-for-infection-by-91

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/english-study-finds-50-60-reduced-risk-covid-double-vaccinated-2021-08-03/

So I'm enjoying a few cold ones on this holiday weekend but it appears all if those links reference one study that is outdated.

Then your last reference, which is the most recent, shows that we've gone from a 91% chance of not getting reinfected to a 50-60% chance. Not exactly confidence building.

Again, I'm not against vaccines and I don't judge the personal decision to get it or not. Just trying to find some truth in all this crap.

[Kenny Powers]

Just a few snips from those links. Having milder symptoms does not equal not getting infected. The second one adds one set of data in Kentucky to the study but still states that there isn't enough data to understand the effectiveness of the vaccine.

 

[Kenny Powers]

To be fair, I'm not spending anytime producing any studies that support my position. Bad on me.

But I think, from what I've been tracking, all the studies and data are lagging reality and it appears that we really don't know wtf is going on.

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Just a few snips from those links. Having milder symptoms does not equal not getting infected. The second one adds one set of data in Kentucky to the study but still states that there isn't enough data to understand the effectiveness of the vaccine.

 

"Reduces risk of infection 91%"...not risk of symptoms, infection.

The Kentucky study shows that "natural immunity" isn't as good as vaccination. 

The UK study shows vaccines reduce the risk of asymptomatic infection by 50-60%...asymptomatic infection, not "reduces severity".

[BashiChuni]

COVID is over fuck can we move on with our lives 

[FUSEPLUG]

3 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

COVID is over fuck can we move on with our lives 

I’ll try that line next week when they boot me out of the Guard at 17 years. 
 

[pawnman]

13 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

COVID is over fuck can we move on with our lives 

Great news for the ~13k hospitalized for Covid last week. 

[BashiChuni]

20 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Great news for the ~13k hospitalized for Covid last week. 

In a country of 300+ million

and a 99.7% survival rate

Edited September 4, 2021 by BashiChuni

[TheNewGazmo]

So, my point above isn't to be political but to prove how divided our country is over this.
It's odd to me that half the people in this country are for the vaccine and half are against it. That really speaks volumes regarding the trust our citizens have in our government.

Not sure it is so evenly divided anymore. We are up to about 62% vaccinated now and that is people older than 11 years old because children younger than that can't get it yet. Considering children 11 and younger totaled almost 50,000,000 in 2019 or roughly 15% of the total population of the US, the best we can possibly do right now is 85%. I am sure that most parents who are vaccinated right now would be all for getting their children vaccinated as well. My daughter is 13 and vaccinated, but my sons are too young right now so they are not. The unvaccinated are in the minority these days.

[Kenny Powers]

8 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

Not sure it is so evenly divided anymore. We are up to about 62% vaccinated now and that is people older than 11 years old because children younger than that can't get it yet. Considering children 11 and younger totaled almost 50,000,000 in 2019 or roughly 15% of the total population of the US, the best we can possibly do right now is 85%. I am sure that most parents who are vaccinated right now would be all for getting their children vaccinated as well. My daughter is 13 and vaccinated, but my sons are too young right now so they are not. The unvaccinated are in the minority these days.

If this is true (you might be right, I'm not tracking this daily), then why does anyone care that some people are unvaccinated?

@pawnmanstates that the vaccines are so good and you state that the unvaccinated are the minority, so why do we still have a problem?

Again, nothing personal, just searching for the truth data.

[pawnman]

28 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

In a country of 300+ million

and a 99.7% survival rate

What's the survival rate of the vaccines? 

[Kenny Powers]

7 minutes ago, pawnman said:

What's the survival rate of the vaccines? 

So, even if it's 100%, is your position that we should mandate vaccines on everyone for a 0.30% increase in survival rate?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Kenny Powers

[hockeydork]

11 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

So, even if it's 100%, is your position that we should mandate vaccines on everyone for a 0.30% increase in survival rate?

I think there are two separate arguments getting blurred. There are some in the military who don't want to be vaccinated, which is different than civilian gen pop people who don't want it. 

[Kenny Powers]

13 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

I think there are two separate arguments getting blurred. There are some in the military who don't want to be vaccinated, which is different than civilian gen pop people who don't want it. 

Care to explain?

Respectfully, I think that is the same exact arguement. 

[TheNewGazmo]

If this is true (you might be right, I'm not tracking this daily), then why does anyone care that some people are unvaccinated?
[mention=3237]pawnman[/mention]states that the vaccines are so good and you state that the unvaccinated are the minority, so why do we still have a problem?
Again, nothing personal, just searching for the truth data.

All you have to do is type "US vaccination rates" into Google and you'll get your data. You can look at other countries as well. We are actually right at 62.7% with at least one dose and 53.3% fully vaccinated as of 2 Sep.

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+vaccination+rate&oq=us+vsccin&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i10i433l3j0i10.2727j0j7&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Depending on what you read, one shot of Pfizer or Moderna gets you to about 60-80% efficacy 30 days after your first shot. Two gets you to over 90%. Again... efficacy = reduction of severe disease and death; not infection.

The big deal is partly due to fanatical views by people who believe everyone should be vaccinated. While I think that people who believe the government is tracking them with some sort of device in the form of a COVID vaccine or believe they are being injected with stem cells from aborted babies are total morons, I can respect someone's educated decision to not get vaccinated and resist the urge to point fingers and blame them for our full hospitals. Noone points the finger at smokers or diabetics (type 2) filling beds who had a choice to live life more healthy.

60,000 people died during the 2017-18 flu endemic in a 3-4 month timespan. It was one of the worst flu seasons in decades. Most of them weren't vaccinated. Not just old people, but children as well. If the flu was as seasonally resistant as COVID, we would have seen at least triple the deaths from the flu that year. Apparently hospitals claimed the sky was falling and were overrun with flu patients, treating them triage-style in tents. Guess what. I am getting that data from the link posted earlier today. You know why? I don't remember that happening at all. It is literally news to me halfway through 2021. You know what made the news more than that during winter of 2017-18? Rocket Man and Orange Man on the brink of war. I remember nothing about a flu "endemic". While I realize COVID is in a bit of a different league than the common flu, the word "endemic" was thrown out there back then. When you use that word, it's a serious matter. There was no mandatory mask wear. There were no corporations mandating flu shots and charging people $200 extra on their health insurance if they didn't get one. This country is a crazy place right now....

[hockeydork]

14 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Care to explain?

Respectfully, I think that is the same exact arguement. 

Just that a nuclear sub with a COVID outbreak is probably a much bigger problem than the Redsox playing with half the roster.

[Kenny Powers]

18 minutes ago, TheNewGazmo said:

All you have to do is type "US vaccination rates" into Google and you'll get your data. You can look at other countries as well. We are actually right at 62.7% with at least one dose and 53.3% fully vaccinated as of 2 Sep.

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+vaccination+rate&oq=us+vsccin&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i10i433l3j0i10.2727j0j7&client=ms-android-hms-tmobile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Depending on what you read, one shot of Pfizer or Moderna gets you to about 60-80% efficacy 30 days after your first shot. Two gets you to over 90%. Again... efficacy = reduction of severe disease and death; not infection.

The big deal is partly due to fanatical views by people who believe everyone should be vaccinated. While I think that people who believe the government is tracking them with some sort of device in the form of a COVID vaccine or believe they are being injected with stem cells from aborted babies are total morons, I can respect someone's educated decision to not get vaccinated and resist the urge to point fingers and blame them for our full hospitals. Noone points the finger at smokers or diabetics (type 2) filling beds who had a choice to live life more healthy.

60,000 people died during the 2017-18 flu endemic in a 3-4 month timespan. It was one of the worst flu seasons in decades. Most of them weren't vaccinated. Not just old people, but children as well. If the flu was as seasonally resistant as COVID, we would have seen at least triple the deaths from the flu that year. Apparently hospitals claimed the sky was falling and were overrun with flu patients, treating them triage-style in tents. Guess what. I am getting that data from the link posted earlier today. You know why? I don't remember that happening at all. It is literally news to me halfway through 2021. You know what made the news more than that during winter of 2017-18? Rocket Man and Orange Man on the brink of war. I remember nothing about a flu "endemic". While I realize COVID is in a bit of a different league than the common flu, the word "endemic" was thrown out there back then. When you use that word, it's a serious matter. There was no mandatory mask wear. There were no corporations mandating flu shots and charging people $200 extra on their health insurance if they didn't get one. This country is a crazy place right now....

 

Good post! I think that realistically explains what is going on.

53.3% fully vaccinated is close enough to 50/50 for me.

Still difficult to attribute the other 46.7% of not fully vaccinated people to one thing or another.

That's a significant data point. Keep in mind, we have had a significant amount of deaths and hospitalizations over this virus and we still have half the country not vaccinated.

Bottom line - regardless of the facts, I think this boils down to our country doesn't trust our government.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Kenny Powers

[TheNewGazmo]

18 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Good post! I think that realistically explains what is going on.

53.3% fully vaccinated is close enough to 50/50 for me.

Still difficult to attribute the other 46.7% of not fully vaccinated people to one thing or another.

That's a significant data point. Keep in mind, we have had a significant amount of deaths and hospitalizations over this virus and we still have half the country not vaccinated.

Bottom line - regardless of the facts, I think this boils down to our country doesn't trust our government.

I'd love to say the vaccine is the answer to all of our problems, but we don't yet know what numbers we need to get herd immunity.  With Measles, it's about 95%.  With Polio, it was 80%.  Flus are hard to vaccinate against because they mutate every season.  There are states right now, like Vermont for example, that have 70%+ vaccination rates and are still going through a "spike".  Most of them are nothing like the spike we saw last December/January, but a spike larger than the initial spike in April of 2020.  It does, however, look like most of the spikes over the last month or so are on the downslope.

[pawnman]

9 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

So, even if it's 100%, is your position that we should mandate vaccines on everyone for a 0.30% increase in survival rate?

Everyone in the US? Probably not. 

Everyone in the military? Absolutely. Because death isn't the only thing that will hurt our readiness. Being unable to get off a ship or aircraft in a host country due to Covid infections hurts us. Having people quarantined at home hurts us. Having people in the hospital hurts us, even if they later recover. 

[brabus]

18 hours ago, Prozac said:

1: Far less likely to get COVID if you have been vaccinated and 2: If you do get a breakthrough infection, you are likely to have a much smaller viral load and will be contagious for a shorter period of time. 

10 hours ago, pawnman said:

The Kentucky study shows that "natural immunity" isn't as good as vaccination. 

1. CDC study on MA 3-17 Jul:

- 74% of cases occurred in fully vaccinated persons

- Among this group, 5 people were hospitalized. 4 were vaccinated, aged 20-70, and 2 of those had underlying med conditions. 1 was unvaccinated, age 50-59, and had multiple med conditions

- CDC: “Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people.”

2. Israeli study around the same time:

- Overview: study found natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization for the Delta variant of Coronavirus compared to Pfizer vaccine

- Model 1: risk of break through infection was 13.06 times higher among vaccinated patients (vs. reinfection of those with natural immunity) and they were 27 times more likely to be symptomatic than unvaccinated people who'd had COVID previously

- Model 2: risk of break through infection was 5.96 times higher among vaccinated patients (vs. reinfection of those with natural immunity) and they were 7.13 times more likely to be symptomatic than unvaccinated people who'd had COVID previously

(Model 1 was between people with same time of first event, and Model 2 was without syncing)

- Israeli Health Ministry (IHM): “With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus, the 72 instances of reinfection amount to 0.0086% of people who were already [naturally] infected with COVID. By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection”

- IHM: “effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine has fallen to 40%”

No spears, just data that many have not likely seen. The Israeli study did find a .53 times increase in protection if you had natural immunity + 1x shot. So, it’s not an anti-vax study, but does demonstrate the effectiveness of the vaccine and the expected results post-vaccine compared to natural immunity is substantially different than what the media, big pharm, and everyone who’s bought off on what they’re selling, is arguing.