COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Swizzle]

[pawnman]

9 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Dude, Polio is significantly worse than COVID - significantly. Like, your chances of dying or being maimed by Polio do make it a non-starter. Consequences matter. And seat belts have no adverse, or potentially adverse affect on you. Vaccines do. It's not more complicated than that, so don't try to make it so.

Leaving aside the fact that Sam Harris is a total pseudo-intellectual, hell yeah, the vaccine is going to diminish your symptoms and the chances you wind up in the ER substantially, so there really is no question from a risk perspective which you should do. Consideration of long-term affects are unknown for both the disease itself and the vaccine, so arguments that rest on that distinction are null. We don't know in either case, and there is no reason to think one would be worse than the other.

All these numbers. A couple things. One, as precise as that "total" number looks and feels, the total number of infections is unknown and we have good reason to think it is MUCH higher - note that many infections are asymptomatic. Note that there was a recent study that found the presence of COVID antibodies to be 2x as prevalent than expected. 2X is huge. That's the denominator. For the numerator, plenty of context is missing - what % of these people had 1, 2, 3, or more underlying conditions? What percent were obese? COVID has been way more dangerous and detrimental to our politics, economy, and society than Fauci would have us believe.

I'm curious, then.

What is your cutoff point for making a vaccine mandatory.  You're clearly all for mandatory polio vaccines, because "polio is worse than Covid".  OK...how about measles?  TB?  Rubella?

Where is your line in the sand where you say "it's OK to mandate these vaccines for kids going to school, it's not OK to mandate these other vaccines for adults in the military"?

Bonus points if, in all your number-crunching, you want to propose a public health solution that the CDC and FDA haven't already pushed.

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

I'm curious, then.

What is your cutoff point for making a vaccine mandatory.  You're clearly all for mandatory polio vaccines, because "polio is worse than Covid".  OK...how about measles?  TB?  Rubella?

Where is your line in the sand where you say "it's OK to mandate these vaccines for kids going to school, it's not OK to mandate these other vaccines for adults in the military"?

Bonus points if, in all your number-crunching, you want to propose a public health solution that the CDC and FDA haven't already pushed.

At least 10 years of real-world data using voluntarily vaccinated as the sample. Then mandates must be proportional to the threat, so only mandates where they make sense. Hospitals and schools. Children when the disease actually threatens children.

 

The severity of the disease is the true regulator of vaccination rates. If COVID-19 was killing people like SARS or MERS(10-30%), people would line up for the vaccine, just like they did in Feb/March when it came out and all the fat/old people who were most at risk went and got it. 

 

After 10 years of studying the vaccine effects, then you can make it mandatory as well as punish people on their insurance premiums if they won't get it.

 

Disclaimer, I'm voluntarily vaccinated, so your stupid and hysterical arguments are not just ridiculous-sounding to the anti-vax crowd.

[TheNewGazmo]

I'm curious, then.
What is your cutoff point for making a vaccine mandatory.  You're clearly all for mandatory polio vaccines, because "polio is worse than Covid".  OK...how about measles?  TB?  Rubella?
Where is your line in the sand where you say "it's OK to mandate these vaccines for kids going to school, it's not OK to mandate these other vaccines for adults in the military"?
Bonus points if, in all your number-crunching, you want to propose a public health solution that the CDC and FDA haven't already pushed.

In 2018-19, about 35,000,000 people in the US got the flu. 35,000 died. The DoD mandates a vaccine for a virus with a .1% death rate. Death isn't everything. Immobilization is just as significant of a factor.

[Scooter14]

In 2018-19, about 35,000,000 people in the US got the flu. 35,000 died. The DoD mandates a vaccine for a virus with a .1% death rate. Death isn't everything. Immobilization is just as significant of a factor.

So is permanent lung damage and all the other stuff we don’t know.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

At least 10 years of real-world data using voluntarily vaccinated as the sample. Then mandates must be proportional to the threat, so only mandates where they make sense. Hospitals and schools. Children when the disease actually threatens children.

 

The severity of the disease is the true regulator of vaccination rates. If COVID-19 was killing people like SARS or MERS(10-30%), people would line up for the vaccine, just like they did in Feb/March when it came out and all the fat/old people who were most at risk went and got it. 

 

After 10 years of studying the vaccine effects, then you can make it mandatory as well as punish people on their insurance premiums if they won't get it.

 

Disclaimer, I'm voluntarily vaccinated, so your stupid and hysterical arguments are not just ridiculous-sounding to the anti-vax crowd.

Why 10 years?  Is that based on any data, or just a gut feeling?

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, TheNewGazmo said:

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

I'm curious, then.
What is your cutoff point for making a vaccine mandatory.  You're clearly all for mandatory polio vaccines, because "polio is worse than Covid".  OK...how about measles?  TB?  Rubella?
Where is your line in the sand where you say "it's OK to mandate these vaccines for kids going to school, it's not OK to mandate these other vaccines for adults in the military"?
Bonus points if, in all your number-crunching, you want to propose a public health solution that the CDC and FDA haven't already pushed.

In 2018-19, about 35,000,000 people in the US got the flu. 35,000 died. The DoD mandates a vaccine for a virus with a .1% death rate. Death isn't everything. Immobilization is just as significant of a factor.

Agreed.  So...are you now saying you support Covid vaccinations?

[gearhog]

The Intercept just published 900 pages of FOIA released documents regarding the origins of COVID and it's research funding.

I've only spent about 20 minutes reading through and I've already read some unbelievable shit. Do yourself a favor and read some of it. It's insane. You won't be seeing it on the nightly news.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21055989-understanding-risk-bat-coronavirus-emergence-grant-notice

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21055988-risk-zoonotic-virus-hotspots-grant-notice

page 114 of the first link:

Aim 3: Testing predictions of CoV inter-species transmission. We will test our models of host range (i.e. emergence potential) experimentally using reverse genetics, pseudovirus and receptor binding assays, and virus infection experiments in cell culture and humanized mice. With bat-CoVs that we've isolated or sequenced, and using live virus or pseudovirus infection in cells of different origin or expressing different receptor molecules, we will assess potential for each isolated virus and those with receptor binding site sequence, to spill over. We will do this by sequencing the spike (or other receptor binding/fusion) protein genes from all our bat-CoVs, creating mutants to identify how significantly each would need to evolve to use ACE2, CD26/DPP4 (MERS-CoV receptor) or other potential CoV receptors. We will then use receptor-mutant pseudovirus binding assays, in vitro studies in bat, primate, human and other species' cell lines, and with humanized mice where particularly interesting viruses are identified phylogenetically, or isolated. These tests will provide public health-relevant data, and also iteratively improve our predictive model to better target bat species and Co Vs during our field studies to obtain bat-CoV strains of the greatest interest for understanding the mechanisms of cross-species transmission.

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Why 10 years?  Is that based on any data, or just a gut feeling?

Vaccines historically do not have effects that manifest more than 12 months after getting the shot. Mostly it's a matter of weeks.

 

However identifying the pattern takes much longer, and constructing and executing the proper studies to validate the potential effects takes even longer. Years in fact.

 

10 years also ensures the bulk of the elected officials, appointees, and bureaucrats involved "at ground zero" are cycled out, allowing for a more dispassionate analysis of the necessity for a mandate. 

[glockenspiel]

45 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Vaccines historically do not have effects that manifest more than 12 months after getting the shot. Mostly it's a matter of weeks.

 

However identifying the pattern takes much longer, and constructing and executing the proper studies to validate the potential effects takes even longer. Years in fact.

 

10 years also ensures the bulk of the elected officials, appointees, and bureaucrats involved "at ground zero" are cycled out, allowing for a more dispassionate analysis of the necessity for a mandate. 

Why isn’t your standard 8 months with a technology that has not been tested in humans? With reported events like this? 
 

[Blue]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:34 PM, pawnman said:

That's fine. I got what I wanted. Y'all are either getting vaccinated or getting out.

Yet you still continue to post.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Blue said:

Yet you still continue to post.

We all live rent-free in @pawnman's mind 🙂

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, torqued said:

The Intercept just published 900 pages of FOIA released documents regarding the origins of COVID and it's research funding.

I've only spent about 20 minutes reading through and I've already read some unbelievable shit. Do yourself a favor and read some of it. It's insane. You won't be seeing it on the nightly news.

FOIA request documents? Pffft where'd you find that fake news? InfoWars? I don't trust websites that are labeled FAR-right militant extremist anti-semitic and are ran by White Christian males! Can you even provide me with one source? No I mean a peer-reviewed source. You must have voted for Trump.... Besides, Snopes said your documents have been debunked. Did you read that right? I typed DEBUNKED. Now drink your corn syrup.

[gearhog]

Which of our pro-vax friends here disagrees with the ACLU?

American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)

Pandemic Preparedness

The Need For a Public Health -Not A Law Enforcement/National Security-Approach

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf

Government agencies have an essential role to play in helping to prevent and mitigate epidemics. Unfortunately, in recent years, our government’s approach to preparing the nation for a possible influenza pandemic has been highly misguided. Too often, policymakers are resorting to law enforcement and national security-oriented measures that not only suppress individual rights unnecessarily, but have proven to be ineffective in stopping the spread of disease and saving lives.

The following report examines the relationship between civil liberties and public health in contemporary U.S. pandemic planning and makes a series of recommendations for developing a more effective, civil liberties-friendly approach.

Conflating Public Health with National Security and Law Enforcement

Rather than focusing on well-established measures for protecting the lives and health of Americans, policymakers have recently embraced an approach that views public health policy through the prism of national security and law enforcement. This model assumes that we must “trade liberty for security.” As a result, instead of helping individuals and communities through education and provision of health care, today’s pandemic prevention focuses on taking aggressive, coercive actions against those who are sick. People, rather than the disease, become the enemy.

Lessons from History

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases. Specifically:

• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary. In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.

• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work. Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases. They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease. As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.

• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures.

...History warns that vulnerable populations may well be subjected to unnecessary and arbitrary detentions if a pandemic strikes.The same point is applicable to vaccinations. The problem will not be that force is needed to vaccinate the population, rather that vaccine will be unavailable or in limited supply and will have to be rationed while people line up to demand access. Nonetheless it is worth emphasizing to public officials that the Supreme Court has ruled that competent individuals have a right to refuse any medical treatment, including life-sustaining treatment, and this includes vaccinations..

And it goes on, and on, and on... Read it

Edited September 8, 2021 by torqued

[gearhog]

On 9/6/2021 at 2:15 PM, pawnman said:

I don't have any more arguments for you.  The vaccines reduce the spread. 

LOL. 3 minutes, 29 seconds.

How are you not embarrassed by mindlessly parroting these "scientific truths" that are constantly changing? Try to keep up.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by torqued

[TheNewGazmo]

11 hours ago, pawnman said:

Agreed.  So...are you now saying you support Covid vaccinations?

Support vaccinations how?  Support making them mandatory in general?  Support making them mandatory for the military?  Support making them mandatory for private organizations?

I'll start with the easy ones first.  The military and private organizations can mandate whatever they want.  If people don't like it, they can leave.  We saw this exact same thing with the anthrax program, which had some shady history associated with it, but I think COVID, while not anywhere near as lethal as an inhalation anthrax infection, is at least tangible. You can read about the anthrax program here:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447151/  It boggles my mind that some military members don't want the COVID shot, but never had an issue with the anthrax vaccine.  Read that article above and you may have second thoughts.  I think the COVID jab is the least of our issues.  I get why the DoD wants this mandatory.  It can take even a young person out for weeks even if it doesn't kill them.  Lots of countries are making this mandatory for certain people; it's not just us. 

For the general public?  Unfortunately we're probably the only country in the world who's made this political.  There are going to be some people who never get this vaccine based off of political beliefs while somehow forgetting who was taking credit for vaccine development a year ago.

I didn't want the shot when it came available last winter.  I took a chance, rolled the dice and waited until last month to get mine.  Everyone else in my family except my kids younger than 12 got vaccinated before I did.  I wanted a few more crash-test dummies out there ahead of me before I was comfortable enough to get it.  I'm due to get my second next week.

With that being said, it's hard to figure out why vaccinated people are still getting infected.  Is it because of Delta?  Is it because of the unvaccinated?  Does the vaccine not work well enough?  Do we need a third shot?  While it's easy to lay blame on the unvaccinated, no one really has a clear answer to any of those questions.  The only data we do have thus far is that very, very few vaccinated people are getting seriously ill and dying from it.  Is that enough to sway people into getting the shot?  Apparently it's still not enough for some.  We don't know why younger people and now more children are getting more seriously ill from this compared to before.  Is it because we've become more complacent with this thing this summer and have gone back to "normal life"?  People are traveling.  People are going on vacation.  People are attending more mass gatherings.  TSA throughput is almost what it was in 2019.  The airports are packed and flights are full.  I've seen it for myself.  Where are people going? Although not as large, we had a spike last year around the same exact time.  Despite their high vaccination rates, Israel is going through a huge spike right now because most of their people between 12-25 years old chose not to get vaccinated.  I think we're seeing the same issue.

[ecugringo]

If they didn't know the vaccine would wane after 6 months, what else do they not know about it?

[disgruntledemployee]

47 minutes ago, ecugringo said:

If they didn't know the vaccine would wane after 6 months, what else do they not know about it?

The winning Powerball numbers for this week. 

The ratio of unicorns to leprechauns was probably off so that may be a factor.  

I seem to recall during vax development that boosters was put out as likely.  Like yearly.  Like forever. 

Anyway, I'm coming in hot because all I see these days is spouting of some podcast as fact, some media guy as gospel, etc., and people looking around at each other, hey, I heard something, do you hear something?  Did your something come from a lefty or righty cause I only trust talk radio people that say they got covid and say they drank blue urinal cake water cause that shit kills anything.

Try going to the sources; perhaps a peer reviewed journal and published scientific papers for example.  I mean if you want to quote me as fact, try 8-12-22-53-62 PB 11

And by god if those are the numbers.....

[disgruntledemployee]

1 hour ago, TheNewGazmo said:

.....

With that being said, it's hard to figure out why vaccinated people are still getting infected.

Well, I think that when we receive an immunization, it only works once the bug is inside our body.  That means we got to be infected.  Now that vax should have taught our system to mount an assault based on enemy recce, building of offensive forces, and deployment into battle.  So, for your fighting forces to work, you gotta get infected, you gotta get invaded.  When you take that test, "Was I Invaded?" it will say yep, you got it.  Will you have symptoms, yes, you're infected.  Will they kill you, chances are much more in your favor because your systems used the vax as an early detection system and the vax installed plans for your military industrial complex to rapidly build that fighting force.  Now sometimes the enemy changes uniforms, or learns new commando tactics.  Your body needs to know how to build new fighting forces to counter and that comes with a vax booster plan with with new recce cards and new MIC plans.  Sure you could try to tough it out on your own, and maybe those new bug commandos damage your lungs. 

[Negatory]

On 9/6/2021 at 4:22 PM, brabus said:

I already did that, with the data that’s available (my risk from COVID vs. VAERS). It’s about equal risk, slightly favoring not taking the vaccine, for the < 50 age group with no underlying med conditions. The bigger elephant in the room is what are the potential long term adverse reactions? Nobody knows, and that’s the biggest factor for many. No one can make any statistically significant argument that immediate adverse reactions equal the driving decision to not get the vaccine, but why get a vaccine that does so little for you (again, the healthy/young crowd specifically) in trade for an unknown longterm risk (could be very low, but could be bad). Also, if you’ve had COVID, you are significantly better protected than if you just had the vaccine, so no scientific reason to get the vaccine if you’ve managed to already have COVID. 

None of this is a “no brainer;” it’s dependent on many variables that differ from person to person. To say COVID vaccination is a blanket “obvious,” “no brainer,” etc. decision one way or the other for everyone out there is ignorant, selfish, or both.

Yeah, great question, what are the long term effects of COVID? Because mid term and permanent damage is way worse than vaccination:

 

Oh, the one thing that is higher risk in COVID vaccinated folks is Lymphadenopathy. Which is swollen lymph nodes. But enjoy the orders of magnitude more likely Kidney injuries, arrhythmia, and intracranial hemorrhaging because it “wasn’t worth the risk.”

[Scooter14]

https://apnews.com/article/business-health-public-health-coronavirus-pandemic-idaho-db21f9a14254996144e78aafb1518259

I’ll just leave this right here.

[gearhog]

24 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

https://apnews.com/article/business-health-public-health-coronavirus-pandemic-idaho-db21f9a14254996144e78aafb1518259

I’ll just leave this right here.

Don't be gullible. It's the same recycled headline and hysteria. The AP is getting lazy.

2018:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5279685/California-hospitals-looks-like-flu-war-zone.html

2019:

https://www.dispatchhealth.com/blog/ers-are-overwhelmed-with-flu-patients-mobile-urgent-care-is-the-solution/

January 2020:

https://www.foxla.com/news/flu-tent-set-up-at-loma-linda-as-cases-on-rise-oc-suffers-first-flu-death-of-season

Also, you can cross off "Vaccines stop the spread" as one of the arguments virtual-signalling pro-vaxxer's can use.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by torqued

[Scooter14]

Don't be gullible. It's the same recycled headline and hysteria. The AP is getting lazy.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

[gearhog]

38 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

Like a baby. You should try it.

1. Exercise

2. Only read the news. Never watch it.

3. No screens after 10pm.

4. Stop being afraid. You're going to die anyway.

[Scooter14]

Like a baby. You should try it.
1. Exercise
2. Only read the news. Never watch it.
3. No screens after 10pm.
4. Stop being afraid. You're going to die anyway.

“Only read the news. Never watch it.”

…says the guy who literally posted a news video you have to watch in response to my news link that you have to read.

I’m vaccinated since Feb, I do all of your advice above and I’m and worry free amigo. It’s been really nice, thank you.

My wife works in healthcare. Her ICU friends are throwing in the towel out of the frustration of watching unvaccinated middle age people show up there, and we aren’t even in a hotspot.

Hospitals don’t pay techs very much, Some of them can make about the same amount in retail and not have to wear a spacesuit and watch people die.

The healthcare shortage will soon make the AF pilot crisis look like child’s play. It’s coming. There will be signs like the ones at Wendy’s apologizing for being short staffed, except it’ll be while you’re waiting hours for emergency medical care.

I believe at some point a week or so ago in one of these ridiculous threads people never thought they would have to ration healthcare.

But here we are, in Idaho where the vax rate is really low, the hospitals are really full and they are beginning to ration healthcare according to the Associated Press article I read.

But yeah sure, I’m gullible.