COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[FLEA]

28 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

 

Nice deflection.

My future conversation is absolutely hypothetical and meant to be sarcastic in nature. I absolutely rolled in the things we have been talking about here.

My point was 100% about trusting torqued over healthcare professionals.

We have had multiple conversations regarding the briefings she gets.

Come on over for dinner. It gets to be a broken f***ing record regarding the positivity rates and hospitalization rates and the vaccine take rate/hospitalization rate ratios.

Guess what? It’s the same stuff that the AP is reporting, only I often get it a few days prior from a health care professional before it hits the news.

These are all topics she has brought up in the past. She’s not making this shit up.

Just yesterday she told me that a handful of staff members either elected to work elsewhere or retire early. Others are leaving because they don’t want to get vaccinated.

Either way, the number of cases and hospitalizations fluctuates but the number of healthcare workers just keeps decreasing.

You can build the biggest hospital (or Air Force) in the world, but you have to staff it with qualified people.
 

 

I think the problem with your approach Scooter is from the outside looking it, it sounds like your only real interest here is your wife bitching about having to do her job. At the end of the day though, your not in any danger, your wife is not, (presuming you both are vaccinated) so its hard to understand what your frustration is other than you wife doesn't get a 15 minute smoke break anymore. 

If you want to honestly posit that you feel terrible for the X number people going to the ER with COVID thats fine, but realize you are more worried about this pandemic than those people are. They weren't even worried enough to get the vaccine. So at the end of the day you are empathetically stressing about something that really has no bearing on you. 

This isn't meant to be a hostile critique but just a recommendation for how you should consider your approach. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by FLEA

[Scooter14]

I would love to come over for dinner, but you strike me as a vegan. (I, kid)
Honest question: Why would her coworkers, who have the same job, and see the same things she does, refuse to get vaccinated?

You’re more than welcome to come over anytime, and I 100% could never survive as a vegan so bring something to grill.

Honest opinion: I think (this is just my opinion) the demographic that is hesitant is younger females who believe the verdict is still out on reproductive effects. There’s not a lot of holdouts, but there are a few.

Mind you, this is in the northeast. I just saw a CDC slide this AM about this area having a very high vaccination rate, probably the highest in the country.

My wife has a friend down south and was shocked at the low take rates at the hospitals down there. A lot of the consensus down there was “ive been working in crowded COVID wings for 18 months and I’m fine, why do I need a vaccine?”

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong and it’s second and third hand from her and her friends, that’s just what I’m hearing.

Again, I don’t think a mandate is the right way to go, I just think the risk of developing long term complications from COVID is much higher than any risks associated with an mRNA vaccine and people need to understand the ramifications of their decision making process.

I feel like (another opinion) there was a very defined line and when the vaccine came out people started to fall on one side or the other very quickly. Many were undecided. But, as time went on the undecided chose the prevalent school of thought.

For example, when it first came out, my wife was one of the first. Her father is in a long term care facility and being vaccinated and able to see him was very important to her. Many of her colleagues got vaxxed right off the bat. Those who were undecided saw that and said “well, Karen and Rick got it two months ago, that’s when most side effects happen, they seem fine to me…meh, I guess I’ll get it too.”

Other places there was resistance, so when people didn’t get it the undecided said “well, Becky didn’t get it and she’s been around COVID for 18 months and she’s fine so i guess I won’t either.”

[Scooter14]

I think the problem with your approach Scooter is from the outside looking it, it sounds like your only real interest here is your wife bitching about having to do her job. At the end of the day though, your not in any danger, your wife is not, (presuming you both are vaccinated) so its hard to understand what your frustration is other than you wife doesn't get a 15 minute smoke break anymore. 
If you want to honestly posit that you feel terrible for the X number people going to the ER with COVID thats fine, but realize you are more worried about this pandemic than those people are. They weren't even worried enough to get the vaccine. So at the end of the day you are empathetically stressing about something that really has no bearing on you. 
This isn't meant to be a hostile critique but just a recommendation for how you should consider your approach. 

Valid points.

I’m honestly not stressed and she’s not bitching. I did not mean for it to come out that way.

Seeing and hearing what we both view as somewhat preventable is hard to see play out here and elsewhere.

Yes we are both vaxxed, we exercise, try to eat as well as we can and, to your point do not feel as though we are in any severe COVID danger.

I will feel bad for people if the census of the hospital is such that one cannot receive non-COVID care. I saw a story about a gentleman in a rural hospital in TX that died of some sort of gallbladder thing, completely preventable but they couldn’t fit him in to any hospital in Houston.

[VMFA187]

5 hours ago, torqued said:

Like a baby. You should try it.

1. Exercise

2. Only read the news. Never watch it.

3. No screens after 10pm.

4. Stop being afraid. You're going to die anyway.

100% on all four.

But also, why exercise? That is hard work. Why not just hope that you can rely on others to protect you by them making sacrifices...

Sounds a lot like people on extended unemployment and welfare. 

I miss that concept of personal responsibility. 

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

Again, I don’t think a mandate is the right way to go, I just think the risk of developing long term complications from COVID is much higher than any risks associated with an mRNA vaccine and people need to understand the ramifications of their decision making process.

I honestly didn't realize we agree on this. Mandates are not the way. That's really the crux, isn't it? If you're not going to force me to make the same life decisions as you, we can disagree indefinitely and nothing of consequence happens as we each assume responsibility for our own personal risk assessment.

I will concede that things may be far, far worse than I imagined. Someone waited "thousands of minutes" for a rural ER. I'm not laughing at the people waiting, I'm laughing at the media desperation.

Edited September 8, 2021 by torqued

[Scooter14]

I honestly didn't realize we agree on this. Mandates are not the way. That's really the crux, isn't it? If you're not going to force me to make the same life decisions as you, we can disagree indefinitely and nothing of consequence happens as we each assume responsibility for our own personal risk assessment.
I will concede that things may be far, far worse than I imagined. Someone waited "thousands of minutes" for a rural ER. I'm not laughing at the people waiting, I'm laughing at the media desperation.

We agree on almost all of it, to include the fact that the media sucks.

…until the consequences of those who get really sick due to no vaccine and flood the hospitals causes a lot of extra work and delays the treatment for cardiac patients, cancer patients, etc. and others that have other potentially life threatening illnesses.

I got a text from a buddy today who’s wife is a nurse at a local hospital.

20 COVID in the hospital
18 unvaxxed, 2 vaxxed.
2 of the unvaxxed on ventilators, in their 30s.

That sucks.

I know crowded hospitals and health care shortages have happened before as you pointed out but I personally feel like severe illness and hospitalization due to COVID is all but avoidable with the shot (in conjunction with exercise, Vitamin D, good sleep hygiene, etc.) and that allows the medical machine to keep moving. I know, big pharma and all but we are where we are.

If hospital overcrowding doesn’t happen and everything is running smoothly, I would not care about one’s choices at all….but even now it’s a choice (except mil soon) and all we can do is educate ourselves to what we think are the pros and cons and ORM it.

I’m gonna go get a steak.

[Guest]

On 9/7/2021 at 7:31 PM, torqued said:

Which of our pro-vax friends here disagrees with the ACLU?

The ACLU has said some silly stuff over the years, but that's something I agree with. I don't think it'll ever not be a shock to me that people (more like NPCs) can't understand that body autonomy trumps anything else with these purported medical procedures. (Whatabouters be stricken; a fetus is not part of a woman, it is its own human).

They have admitted they're done with the "carrot" approach and now are moving with the "stick" approach. Unfortunately for them, they can't even control a crime ridden diverse city, let alone the nation. I don't know how they think they'll enforce this tyranny when even 10 local bubbas know the home of every one of the area tyrants' family members and friends. Hubris is probably the answer, because as we know, the People don't need F-15s or nukes to take on a tyrannical government.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

The winning Powerball numbers for this week. 

The ratio of unicorns to leprechauns was probably off so that may be a factor.  

I seem to recall during vax development that boosters was put out as likely.  Like yearly.  Like forever. 

Anyway, I'm coming in hot because all I see these days is spouting of some podcast as fact, some media guy as gospel, etc., and people looking around at each other, hey, I heard something, do you hear something?  Did your something come from a lefty or righty cause I only trust talk radio people that say they got covid and say they drank blue urinal cake water cause that shit kills anything.

Try going to the sources; perhaps a peer reviewed journal and published scientific papers for example.  I mean if you want to quote me as fact, try 8-12-22-53-62 PB 11

And by god if those are the numbers.....

Cope. Instead of deflecting from @ecugringo's argument, try debating him on the merits. It is a genuine question, not a snide late night "comedy" talk show quip. For me a big one is this: genuinely, can they say this won't harm young men and women's reproductive system? It's already caused issues with women's menstrual cycles. It would be logical to presume it would also cause issues with the rest of their reproductive system. Young people want healthy children and to make a family, but the lies, coercion, and missing data are not convincing them to take this experimental drug. This is a big reason I'm seeing in those I work with as to why they're not taking it.

Edited September 9, 2021 by dogfish78
typo

[Negatory]

2 hours ago, dogfish78 said:

(Whatabouters be stricken; a fetus is not part of a woman, it is its own human).

Good thing we had someone bring up that totally clear entirely transferable argument about bodily autonomy. By the way the ACLU defines viability as 6-7 months, and therefore fights for that definition, if you’re gonna try to say the ACLU is on your side in this case while talking out of the other side of your mouth when it doesn’t suit you.

[disgruntledemployee]

3 hours ago, dogfish78 said:

Cope. Instead of deflecting from @ecugringo's argument, try debating him on the merits. It is a genuine question, not a snide late night "comedy" talk show quip. For me a big one is this: genuinely, can they say this won't harm young men and women's reproductive system? It's already caused issues with women's menstrual cycles. It would be logical to presume it would also cause issues with the rest of their reproductive system. Young people want healthy children and to make a family, but the lies, coercion, and missing data are not convincing them to take this experimental drug. This is a big reason I'm seeing in those I work with as to why they're not taking it.

Nah.  The "What else don't they know about it?" is not an argument, it feels more like an assumption generator that's feeding into a mass hysteria.

Here's an argument.  Covid can kill.  Facts.  1. Lots of people that got covid died.  Prove me wrong.  See, that's an argument.

And you did it as well, just tossed out some talking points on effects to reproductive health, something about lies, coercion, and missing data.  If this is 1st hand, I hope your cycle returns to normal soon.  If it's from a study of 10K women in Israel, cite your work.  Next, what data is missing?  Let us know and maybe someone can find it for you. 

Pfizer is no longer experimental, and wasn't experimental when shots were approved under Emergency Use.  The experiment parts were the 40K+ people taking shots during the phase trials.  Now if you feel apprehension for taking a new vaccine because there's a pandemic and wondering how they made it so quickly and so on, talk to a doc. 

Lastly, I did my research and got the shot, specifically choosing Pfizer/BioNTech as they were the pioneers of mRNA R&D.  I got my armor and feel I should be able to go about as I please.   

[Pooter]

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 
 

Except there's a catch.
 

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 
 

[glockenspiel]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 
 

Except there's a catch.
 

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 
 

Are there only two groups in the discussion? Unvaxed vs vaxed? How about children? How about previously infected people? How about people sub 40 who are healthy?Isn’t it weird how every issue boils down to one group vs the other— almost like the media is fueling division… The infection fatality ratio for children under 12 is 3500X less than those 65 plus according to CDCs best estimates https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

it just seems a little simplistic to boil it down to two group.
 

Also we know the long term risk of smoking, do we know the long term risk of covid or the vaccine? No.

[tac airlifter]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 
 

Except there's a catch.
 

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 
 

Lol.  Liberals love to pretend they cherish your above stated core tenet.  But there’s always an anti-freedom catch that forces others to comply.  There’s a catch with owning guns, there’s a catch with free speech on campus, there’s a catch with medical care, posting on Facebook, abortion, church services, public schools, election law, immigration, etc.  In fact there’s no subject where liberals actually live out your alleged core tenet.  They’re just tyrannical hypocrites every time.

[Lord Ratner]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:16 AM, Scooter14 said:

 

Seeing and hearing what we both view as somewhat preventable is hard to see play out here and elsewhere.

This is the single biggest complication with liberal ideology (I'm not saying you are necessarily a liberal).

 

Smart people who have a track record of making responsible choices that lead to successful outcomes look at the people around them, many of whom are in fact not nearly as smart, and despair the bad choices they make that often lead to worse outcomes.

 

It eventually leads (with the best intentions) to restricting, discouraging, or outright banning the behavior.

 

And without fail, the people who were meant to be helped by the ban find new and creative ways to self-destruct. That's just how humans are. For many, many people they only learn successful habits through failure. Even very smart, otherwise rational people. Taking away that failure opportunity only send them in another destructive direction, except now they are exacerbated by the rage of having some well-meaning prick tell them what the "must" do.

 

There is a positive correlation between personal freedoms and national power and wealth. Paradoxically, short term complications lead to long term success.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Lord Ratner

[hockeydork]

12 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

This is the single biggest complication with liberal ideology (I'm not saying you are necessarily a liberal).

 

Smart people who have a track record of making responsible choices that lead to successful outcomes look at the people around them, many of whom are in fact not nearly as smart, and despair the bad choices they make that often lead to worse outcomes.

 

It eventually leads (with the best intentions) to restricting, discouraging, or outright banning the behavior.

 

And without fail, the people who were meant to be helped by the ban find new and creative ways to self-destruct. That's just how humans are. For many, many people they only learn successful habits through failure. Even very smart, otherwise rational people. Taking away that failure opportunity only send them in another destructive direction, except now they are abilities by the rage of having some well-meaning prick tell them what the "must" do.

 

There is a positive correlation between personal freedoms and national power and wealth. Paradoxically, short term complications lead to long term success.

In the end I think most humans don't like to be told what to do, doesn't matter whether the agenda you are trying to push is good or bad for whoever you are trying to push it on, and it doesn't matter whether they are smart or dumb. 

Your thought logic is that people should be free to make mistakes and learn the hard way. Totally agree. 

Problem is on a national "big decision level", some mistakes can only be made once and there are no do overs. We are (for the most part) a majority rules system, and the majority isn't always the smartest half. 

 

Is COVID one of those big decisions? I don't think so, those most vulnerable have access to the shot. Those who don't want it most likely will make it if they get COVID, if we lose a few stragglers, oh well. 

 

 

[ViperMan]

10 hours ago, Pooter said:

One of the most important tenets of liberal thought is:

you should be able to do what you want unless it impacts someone else

A lot of anti vax people think their choice to not get the shot is solely a personal one with little to no ramifications on others. After all, if you're vaccinated why would you worry about getting covid from an unvaxxed person. 

Except there's a catch.

Healthcare is a finite resource and non vaccinated people are taking up almost all of the bandwidth. Across all age groups, the unvaccinated are far more likely to contract severe illness and require hospitalization. When your trash decision puts you in the hospital and you take an ICU bed from someone needing urgent care for something that wasn't preventable, your decision just hurt someone else.  I'll say the same for obese people and smokers. Your trash lifestyle and decision making has upped your risk factors and you are negatively impacting others. 

I agree with you except in regards to the framing.

That's not a tenet of liberal thought. Maybe it was in terms of what would traditionally be thought of as enlightenment liberalism, but certainly not modern liberalism that we see enacted by modern democrats and the like. That tenet you cite is much more closely aligned to what modern conservatives and libertarians believe than what democrats think.

And to your "catch," the imagined conflict evaporates when you actually realize the truth: that healthcare is a resource (as you put it), but your argument actually stems from an assumption that it's a right - which is a tenet of modern liberal thought.

[glockenspiel]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:11 PM, busdriver said:

This is the fundamental disconnect.  Some agree with you.  Some think the primary purpose of government is protect its citizens rights.

Lest we forget the summary of all 105 pages in one paragraph. @busdriver

Here is to another 105🍻 lol

Edited September 9, 2021 by glockenspiel
5

[Guardian]

Science wins again. Vaccine largely ineffective.

[Guardian]

Another fantastic video.

[gearhog]

I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.

Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.

True or False?

 

[Alpharatz]

They can bring 'em up to date on the bugshot at out processing...The airlines will get 'em anyway....As far as Guard pilots..that's what happened many moons ago when the sandbox fired up...No one cared..

[gearhog]

42 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

They can bring 'em up to date on the bugshot at out processing...The airlines will get 'em anyway....As far as Guard pilots..that's what happened many moons ago when the sandbox fired up...No one cared..

Your personal opinion is duly noted, but I'm just asking if it's true.

[the g-man]

I keep seeing reports of significant numbers of USAF pilots and crew quitting over the vax, but can't find the source. There's likely not going to be an official statement regarding such.
Specifically, at Langley F-22  and Barksdale B-52 squadrons. I have my doubts, but I personally know 4-5 guard pilots who plan to make it known that they're retiring during tomorrow's drill.
True or False?
 

Joke is going to be on them now that any company over 100 employees has a vaccine mandate now.

It’s a really dumb hill to die on folks especially people with multiple pages of immunizations and a slew of them being for anthrax. Like really who has seen anthrax besides that Daschle mail thing in like 2002?


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[gearhog]

14 minutes ago, the g-man said:

Joke is going to be on them now that any company over 100 employees has a vaccine mandate now.

It’s a really dumb hill to die on folks especially people with multiple pages of immunizations and a slew of them being for anthrax. Like really who has seen anthrax besides that Daschle mail thing in like 2002?
 

Slow down, dude. If we can't even establish if this is true, you're just beating up a straw man.

[Prosuper]

When POTUS says "show some respect" it's too late and he has lost the country.