COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[gearhog]

15 minutes ago, BrightNeptune said:

The latter. The mission broke me and I'm done. I've participated directly in ending many lives for no purpose. Those people could still be alive and there would be no difference. Who knows if they were even bad people. Showing up overhead just to waste a random dude that is no threat to you, your family, or your country takes it toll after you have been doing it for years on end.

You know the flashback scene in the third Bourne movie with Jason, his trainer, and a dude in the corner with a hood over his head and handcuffs? Jason was told to pick up the gun and shoot him. The trainer would not answer any questions. I picked up that gun and shot many people and watched them bleed out live and in high definition. I can't do that anymore. (No, I did not "fly" a drone, I was there overhead)

I'm pretty much at the end of my UPT ADSC and want out ASAP before these idiots in charge find a new way to sacrifice my life in order to give them a bullet on their next OPR.

I have yet to be convinced I need the vaccine, either. If I was a free man I would not get it until I am convinced that it will benefit me. I'm not a free man and there is now a gun to my head, so I guess I will be getting it shortly.
 

Damn. That's a hell of a burden you're carrying. But, you are a free man. Sounds like you need to close this chapter in your life. There is so much opportunity out there and I didn't realize it until I was out. As was said earlier, you're not the only one feeling this crisis of faith and trust, but maybe moreso than most. I hope you do whatever is right for you.

[gearhog]

5 minutes ago, Pooter said:

Wrong again. You aren't controlling for the total number of people in the vaccinated and unvaccinated sub groups. Your continuing arrogance in the face of being so objectively wrong is getting pretty obnoxious. 
 

When you calculate a death rate you divide deaths in a particular sub group by total number of people in that sub group. You do not divide a death number by another death number. That results in a unit-less proportion that has no context. We will now spell this out so there's no more confusion. 
 

When you want to find the total covid death rate you do this:

Number of covid deaths /  number of people 

So if you want the elderly vaccinated covid death rate you do this: 

number of vaxxed old people deaths / number of vaxxed old people

And if you want unvaxxed old people death rate you do this: 

number of unvaxxed old people deaths / number of unvaxxed old people

Hopefully by now you have caught on that there are two different denominators and one is much larger than the other. And that is why the death rate can be much lower for vaxxed old people despite their numerator being larger.
 

The only thing your mis-analysis allows you to say is that approximately two thirds of the UK elderly covid deaths are among vaccinated and one third are the unvaccinated. But without the correct denominators that number does not tell you anything useful about death rates and relative risk level between the two groups.

Quick thought experiment. If everyone had the shot, vaccinated people would account for 100% of the deaths! My goodness! The vaccine must be pointless! It's almost like having the correct denominator actually matters. 

Thanks.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, torqued said:

Damn. That's a hell of a burden you're carrying. But, you are a free man. Sounds like you need to close this chapter in your life. There is so much opportunity out there and I didn't realize it until I was out. As was said earlier, you're not the only one feeling this crisis of faith and trust, but maybe moreso than most. I hope you do whatever is right for you.

@BrightNeptune Get out. Live your life and do good. Consider getting involved somehow in local & state politics which are going to be the only reason our nation will survive. The federal government is totally subverted at this point. Don't let them win. (they're losing hard, that's why they're making so many mistakes currently)

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Found General Chang

Chang was annoying, but at least he was coherent. 

[tac airlifter]

2 hours ago, BrightNeptune said:

The latter. The mission broke me and I'm done. I've participated directly in ending many lives for no purpose. Those people could still be alive and there would be no difference. Who knows if they were even bad people. Showing up overhead just to waste a random dude that is no threat to you, your family, or your country takes it toll after you have been doing it for years on end.

You know the flashback scene in the third Bourne movie with Jason, his trainer, and a dude in the corner with a hood over his head and handcuffs? Jason was told to pick up the gun and shoot him. The trainer would not answer any questions. I picked up that gun and shot many people and watched them bleed out live and in high definition. I can't do that anymore. (No, I did not "fly" a drone, I was there overhead

 

Happy to talk if you want to Dm me.  I know exactly what you feel, having done more of this than perhaps anyone in the AF.  But I would challenge a few of your assumptions.  The things you’ve done are not for nothing.

[DirkDiggler]

3 hours ago, BrightNeptune said:

The latter. The mission broke me and I'm done. I've participated directly in ending many lives for no purpose. Those people could still be alive and there would be no difference. Who knows if they were even bad people. Showing up overhead just to waste a random dude that is no threat to you, your family, or your country takes it toll after you have been doing it for years on end.

You know the flashback scene in the third Bourne movie with Jason, his trainer, and a dude in the corner with a hood over his head and handcuffs? Jason was told to pick up the gun and shoot him. The trainer would not answer any questions. I picked up that gun and shot many people and watched them bleed out live and in high definition. I can't do that anymore. (No, I did not "fly" a drone, I was there overhead)

I'm pretty much at the end of my UPT ADSC and want out ASAP before these idiots in charge find a new way to sacrifice my life in order to give them a bullet on their next OPR.

I have yet to be convinced I need the vaccine, either. If I was a free man I would not get it until I am convinced that it will benefit me. I'm not a free man and there is now a gun to my head, so I guess I will be getting it shortly.
 

Fair enough, as a mobility guy I can't say I directly understand your struggles; I have helped carry an unfortunate amount of dead American SOF off the back of my airplane over the years and I'd be lying if I said that the last three weeks of events in Afghanistan have been easy for me to process either.  If you ever need someone to vent to please feel free to DM, I sincerely wish you the best wherever you land.  

  Unsolicited advice that you're free to disregard/ignore; don't end your time in the AF on a General or other than honorable discharge.  I think you'd regret it in the long run.

[DirkDiggler]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Found General Chang

It helps a lot to go under user settings and just block seeing his posts; keeps all these threads more coherent.  Also, if I could ask a favor, try not to quote that Martian, it complicates my own efforts to not see the garbage he posts.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, pawnman said:

Chang was annoying, but at least he was coherent. 

>calls my posts incoherent because you’re too much of a mentally deficient loser to actually debate me and win

Why @pawnman “con”man?

Does anyone know if @DirkDiggler has Ligma? He can’t seem to ever stop talking about me.

Edited September 15, 2021 by dogfish78

[Boomer6]

At what point will the mods boot someone based on a large number of active members blocking all of their content?

That’s not a spear at the mods, it’s an actual question. What percent of active daily membership have to block someone before the troll gets bounced?

Edited September 15, 2021 by Boomer6

[Guardian]

At the point where Twitter takes over control over these forums

[Boomer6]

6 minutes ago, Guardian said:

At the point where Twitter takes over control over these forums

Invalid. PWB and the choads like him were sent packing, but Twitter let’s the taliban tweet.

[Guardian]

Agree to disagree

[pawnman]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VuouMqMkDrg57QEHd94nqYLGck8wFKdH/view?fbclid=IwAR1Vm7FonfF500oXe0zLZfnz8bHLB2JAwhlfLmcnDd9eqHBar0v-HOMgPtQ

USAF guidance on Covid vaccines.  Couple of things stuck out:

1. Your 16+ years of service may not be enough to keep you in until retirement if you refuse the vaccines

2. An established separation or retirement date doesn't exempt you from needing the vaccine

3. There will be no involuntary separation pay if you are separated for refusing the vaccine

4. Refusing the vaccine doesn't automatically get you out of your ADSC

5. If you took the bonus or are still on the hook for TA or other educational benefits, and you get kicked out, the Air Force will likely come after you for the "unearned" portion of the bonus and/or recoup the cost of the educational benefits.

6. The memo does not definitively state the characterization of a discharge for vaccine refusal, leaving that to individual commanders.

 

Edit: related, from a terrible screen grab:

You CAN be ordered to take the Pfizer vaccine.  No holding out for a label change to Comirnaty.

Edited September 15, 2021 by pawnman

[gearhog]

39 minutes ago, BrightNeptune said:

From a friend through the rumor mill:

It seems at least one UPT student that is already flying complete but not graduated yet has refused the vaccine. What happens to them?

One possibility: He makes sure his logbook is properly filled out, get his military equivalency instrument and commercial ratings, gets a civilian job, does whatever he wants, marries a hot flight attendant or two, and lives happily ever after.

[TheNewGazmo]

One possibility: He makes sure his logbook is properly filled out, get his military equivalency instrument and commercial ratings, gets a civilian job, does whatever he wants, marries a hot flight attendant or two, and lives happily ever after.

And then get to the airlines and find that the airlines are requiring the vaccine as well.

Very refreshing to see that when Air Force leaders put their minds to it they can actually cover all their bases when it comes to strong-arming people into doing something. I just wish they'd use those talents in other places.

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, BrightNeptune said:

From a friend through the rumor mill:

It seems at least one UPT student that is already flying complete but not graduated yet has refused the vaccine. What happens to them?

“Thanks for your service. Here’s your DD-214.”

[jazzdude]

One possibility: He makes sure his logbook is properly filled out, get his military equivalency instrument and commercial ratings, gets a civilian job, does whatever he wants, marries a hot flight attendant or two, and lives happily ever after.

He hasn't been winged yet, so the AF could opt to not wing him and deny him the pilot aeronautical rating, which means no mil-comp for commercial/instrument ratings.

Best case for him is the system is slow and he wings. Worst case is what I have above. Most likely is being put on admin hold and rolling a class or two while the commanders figure out what to do.

[DirkDiggler]

6 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

 

 

He hasn't been winged yet, so the AF could opt to not wing him and deny him the pilot aeronautical rating, which means no mil-comp for commercial/instrument ratings.

Best case for him is the system is slow and he wings. Worst case is what I have above. Most likely is being put on admin hold and rolling a class or two while the commanders figure out what to do.

 

According to the 19th AF/CC guidance we got in an email last week, said individual WILL be put on administrative hold pending a determination of his/her future in the service.  Whether the Bobs ultimately decide to wing him/her since according to the source he/she is syllabus complete I honestly couldn't say.

[TheNewGazmo]

According to the 19th AF/CC guidance we got in an email last week, said individual WILL be put on administrative hold pending a determination of his/her future in the service.  Whether the Bobs ultimately decide to wing him/her since according to the source he/she is syllabus complete I honestly couldn't say.

Wing him? Forgetabout it!.... they won't wing him. It'll be the ultimate sacrifice and they will have no problems throwing all of that money away to make an example out of him.

[abmwaldo]

15 hours ago, pawnman said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VuouMqMkDrg57QEHd94nqYLGck8wFKdH/view?fbclid=IwAR1Vm7FonfF500oXe0zLZfnz8bHLB2JAwhlfLmcnDd9eqHBar0v-HOMgPtQ

Are you able to source this to MyPers or other "official" channels? This answers several questions I've been asked but can't answer. 

[Lord Ratner]

17 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

According to the 19th AF/CC guidance we got in an email last week, said individual WILL be put on administrative hold pending a determination of his/her future in the service.  Whether the Bobs ultimately decide to wing him/her since according to the source he/she is syllabus complete I honestly couldn't say.

Why would they wing someone right before administratively separating them? I'd be surprised.

 

[gearhog]

2 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Why would they wing someone right before administratively separating them? I'd be surprised.

 

I think he should argue that he successfully completed the training, and met all the preexisting conditions and standards to be designated an Air Force pilot. It wasn't until after he met those requirements that the vaccine was mandated, and even then, it isn't a condition for being a pilot, just for staying in.

Even still, I'd also be surprised. It's probably a rare situation and the risk of blowback for denying him wings isn't enough for Wing leadership to care about. Unless they're a Gen Milley, they're going to tow the line.

[jazzdude]

I think he should argue that he successfully completed the training, and met all the preexisting conditions and standards to be designated an Air Force pilot. It wasn't until after he met those requirements that the vaccine was mandated, and even then, it isn't a condition for being a pilot, just for staying in.
Even still, I'd also be surprised. It's probably a rare situation and the risk of blowback for denying him wings isn't enough for Wing leadership to care about. Unless they're a Gen Milley, they're going to tow the line.

Would you make this argument if said student got RPAs, completed the syllabus, then DOR'd right before graduation?

[TheNewGazmo]

9 minutes ago, torqued said:

I think he should argue that he successfully completed the training, and met all the preexisting conditions and standards to be designated an Air Force pilot. It wasn't until after he met those requirements that the vaccine was mandated, and even then, it isn't a condition for being a pilot, just for staying in.

Even still, I'd also be surprised. It's probably a rare situation and the risk of blowback for denying him wings isn't enough for Wing leadership to care about. Unless they're a Gen Milley, they're going to tow the line.

You are trying to use way too much common sense here.  They will not wing him.  The pilot shortage is a crisis of the past.  

[DirkDiggler]

18 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Why would they wing someone right before administratively separating them? I'd be surprised.

 

Don’t know, honestly think it could be Wg/CC and timing dependent but I’m speculating, the email didn’t go into any more specifics.  I also don’t have even close to the full story on this so any guess I make as to 19th/AF and AETC’s actions would be just a guess.
  Personal opinion, if the guy completed the syllabus, was just waiting on graduation and I was wing king I’d let him wing with his class; I wouldn’t see that as being tied to the vaccine refusal.