COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[brickhistory]

Of which we are STILL kicking out around 10,000 of those troops.

Because science...

Which is something that the "didn't say it, wasn't me" brigade strongly support.

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, Negatory said:

Although you are desperate for validation - craving the herd’s approval and being able to say “I told ya so” - you’re not gonna find it.

I never said there was a guaranteed increase in deaths. I never said that omicron would have a death rate that was the same as delta or higher. I said there would likely be over a million cases a day, and we couldn’t know how that would impact the healthcare system. You said that there was no chance we could quadruple our maximum cases per day and were very wrong within just a couple weeks. Standard. Maybe you forget that I used exact quotes from you to prove how incorrect you were. In reality, I see that still bugs you.

Glad the mortality of this virus was significantly lower for Omicron. I am and have been fully in support of removing all mask and vaccine mandates shortly after more data came out (but you don’t know or can’t accept this because you can’t debate a nuanced opinion). Go ahead, check my posts. This is not gonna be the “and then they clapped” moment you wish it would be.

I think Viper and many others have built up a perfect foil in their heads and when someone like you or I present any dissenting opinion, they like to place us in that slot. The truth is most people on all sides of the issue have nuanced views that make it hard to put them into two easy categories: “anti vax” or “fear porn monger”. @ViperMan, fwiw, I will continue to base my decisions and opinions on the advice of medical experts, despite your apparent impeccable credentials as an aviation god, therefore unquestionable expert in medicine, finance, legal advice, and any other subject you choose to pontificate upon. You sir, are going to fit right in with the crusty airline captain crowd someday. 

[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

I think Viper and many others have built up a perfect foil in their heads and when someone like you or I present any dissenting opinion, they like to place us in that slot. The truth is most people on all sides of the issue have nuanced views that make it hard to put them into two easy categories: “anti vax” or “fear porn monger”. @ViperMan, fwiw, I will continue to base my decisions and opinions on the advice of medical experts, despite your apparent impeccable credentials as an aviation god, therefore unquestionable expert in medicine, finance, legal advice, and any other subject you choose to pontificate upon. You sir, are going to fit right in with the crusty airline captain crowd someday. 

Nope. Just trying to have a reasoned debate/discussion using fact, reason, and logic to best understand and orient myself in this new world we find ourselves in. All while navigating heaps of disinformation spread by those who know better and those who are equipped to know better.

[bennynova]

On 2/10/2022 at 10:41 PM, MCO said:

I wouldn’t do any of those things, and I’m against mandates. But who cares if someone wants to wear a mask on their own? I saw it all the time in Japan pre-pandemic and no one cared. I don’t understand the rage it causes. Just like I don’t understand the rage not wearing a mask causes. 
 

Why can’t people just do what they want?

Yes.  People should do what they want.   
 

I think it causes rage in the current situation when it’s mandatory...yet it’s only really mandatory if everyone is a lemming and follows the rule blindly, with no common sense.  
 

it’s also frustrating to see society as a whole, so afraid because of the lies we are spewed 

[glockenspiel]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:24 PM, Prozac said:

I think Viper and many others have built up a perfect foil in their heads and when someone like you or I present any dissenting opinion, they like to place us in that slot. The truth is most people on all sides of the issue have nuanced views that make it hard to put them into two easy categories: “anti vax” or “fear porn monger”. @ViperMan, fwiw, I will continue to base my decisions and opinions on the advice of medical experts, despite your apparent impeccable credentials as an aviation god, therefore unquestionable expert in medicine, finance, legal advice, and any other subject you choose to pontificate upon. You sir, are going to fit right in with the crusty airline captain crowd someday. 

Which experts?

Nice ad homonym at the end. Total zinger! Always a good call when logic fails.

[pawnman]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:24 PM, Prozac said:

I think Viper and many others have built up a perfect foil in their heads and when someone like you or I present any dissenting opinion, they like to place us in that slot. The truth is most people on all sides of the issue have nuanced views that make it hard to put them into two easy categories: “anti vax” or “fear porn monger”. @ViperMan, fwiw, I will continue to base my decisions and opinions on the advice of medical experts, despite your apparent impeccable credentials as an aviation god, therefore unquestionable expert in medicine, finance, legal advice, and any other subject you choose to pontificate upon. You sir, are going to fit right in with the crusty airline captain crowd someday. 

"You're either with us or you're against us" is always a great method to solve complex problems. 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

"You're either with us or you're against us" is always a great method to solve complex problems. 

So ironic you just posted that. Oh man

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

So ironic you just posted that. Oh man

Thanks for presenting such a clear example.

"This guy supported legal orders for masks and vaccinations for the military.  That means he wants to lock everything down and arrest all the truckers!  He wants to inject fetuses while they're still in the womb!"

Good work.  Exhibit 6900 in this thread why the country is so polarized.

[SurelySerious]

Thanks for presenting such a clear example.
"This guy supported legal orders for masks and vaccinations for the military.  That means he wants to lock everything down and arrest all the truckers!  He wants to inject fetuses while they're still in the womb!"
Good work.  Exhibit 6900 in this thread why the country is so polarized.

It was likely the flippant and polarizing way in which you have supported those positions to which he was referring, but keep self-generating examples of polarized bs with zero self awareness.

[BFM this]

The dissonance is strong in this one...

[Sim]

 

 

[BashiChuni]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:15 PM, pawnman said:

"You're either with us or you're against us" is always a great method to solve complex problems. 

pawnman i honestly want to understand you.

can you please tell me how big tech censoring viewpoints/tweets/opinions/monetary donations, de-platforming individuals who have differing opinions that do not fall in line with your sides thinking is not "with us or against us" mentality?

to any outsider this is hypocrisy.

the left always says they champion "tolerance" until they encounter views not their own. then that "tolerance" quickly becomes intolerance. and since the left controls big tech/media, that intolerance takes the form of bans and censorship.

 

so please, please...spare me the faux outrage of your statement. and i will wait for a logical reply on your part. thank you.

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

pawnman i honestly want to understand you.

can you please tell me how big tech censoring viewpoints/tweets/opinions/monetary donations, de-platforming individuals who have differing opinions that do not fall in line with your sides thinking is not "with us or against us" mentality?

to any outsider this is hypocrisy.

the left always says they champion "tolerance" until they encounter views not their own. then that "tolerance" quickly becomes intolerance. and since the left controls big tech/media, that intolerance takes the form of bans and censorship.

 

so please, please...spare me the faux outrage of your statement. and i will wait for a logical reply on your part. thank you.

I DO think that big tech censoring people and deplatforming folks is a part of what I'm talking about.  And I think it's bad we've surrendered so much of our discourse to these giant companies.  I think it's insane that Trudeau is seizing bank accounts and trucks from protesters who did nothing more than park their rigs.  I think it's crazy there are still schools that are closed. I was on board with the mask mandates at the time because they don't cost much, don't harm anyone, and the data we had said they helped (no, not a 100% elimination of Covid, but a reduction).  We have new data that says masks are useless...so I've changed my stance, with new data, and I think we should start getting rid of the mandates. I already thought it was silly to walk into a restaurant with a mask, only to take it off once seated.

I still maintain that the masks and vaccines were lawful orders, and I've been ordered to do dumber things for worse reasons.

The fact that you immediately thought I was on the other side of that issue, because I was on the other side of a completely different issue, is exactly what I mean. We probably have more in common than we disagree on. But because we disagreed on vaccine mandates for the military, you assume I'm going to disagree with you on every topic.

[BashiChuni]

very good post pawnman!

i think most americans are closer in agreement then MSNBC or FOXNEWS tries to portray. i appreciate your thoughtful reply

[brickhistory]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

very good post pawnman!

i think most americans are closer in agreement then MSNBC or FOXNEWS tries to portray. i appreciate your thoughtful reply

When people tell or show you who they are, believe them.

The appearance was positively giddy about 10,000 self-inflicted subtractions from our military forces

[brickhistory]

Court: Pilot, attendant will suffer under vaccine mandate (msn.com)

Quote

A pilot and a flight attendant for United Airlines will suffer “irreparable harm” under the airline’s COVID-19 policy that makes them choose between getting vaccinated in violation of their religious objections or going on unpaid leave, a divided federal appeals court panel in New Orleans ruled Thursday.

Air Force can’t compel Christian officer to get Covid shot, judge rules (msn.com)

 

Quote

 

Afederal judge in Georgia has temporarily blocked the U.S. military from enforcing its Covid-19 vaccine mandate against an Air Force officer seeking a religious exemption. 

The order was handed down a month after the unnamed officer, who is a Christian, filed a lawsuit alleging that the mandate violates her religious beliefs.

...

Self noted that the Air Force has rejected 99.76 percent of all religious accommodation requests. It had denied all of them up until the last two weeks when it approved nine, he said. 

“With such a marked record disfavoring religious accommodation requests, the Court easily finds that the Air Force’s process to protect religious rights is both illusory and insincere,” he wrote. “In short, it’s just ‘theater.’”

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by brickhistory

[Danger41]

“It’s just theater”… unlike the thousands of people who suddenly had a Paul on the road to Damascus moment with this vaccine. Quite the religious awakening. 
 

I think this whole vaccination thing is BS but people trying the religious route when it’s total crap really pisses me off. Totally undermines folks that have legitimate religious beliefs. 

[brickhistory]

Agreed.

But Dod's near blanket denial of any religious exceptions was yet another own goal to this bad, possibly illegal IMO, order.

DoD took/is taking nearly 10,000 casualty equivalents over a policy, not hard science.  

In a time when the percentage of eligibles to join is ever decreasing.

How many of those 10,000 would recommend joining?  How many people that know those 10,000 would recommend or consider joining themselves?  

Many of us here are 2, 3, or more generations of serving.  I wouldn't recommend anyone to enlist or commission.  Would you?

[Danger41]

That’s a good question. 3rd generation (WW2 Merchant Marine, Vietnam 2 x DFC aviator, my bitch ass) and I’ve got 3 kids. I don’t think I would actively dissuade service because I love this country and I think military service has many benefits but there’s definitely some serious rot in the force. And it ain’t with the Joe’s. 

[MCO]

34 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

Agreed.

But Dod's near blanket denial of any religious exceptions was yet another own goal to this bad, possibly illegal IMO, order.

DoD took/is taking nearly 10,000 casualty equivalents over a policy, not hard science.  

In a time when the percentage of eligibles to join is ever decreasing.

How many of those 10,000 would recommend joining?  How many people that know those 10,000 would recommend or consider joining themselves?  

Many of us here are 2, 3, or more generations of serving.  I wouldn't recommend anyone to enlist or commission.  Would you?

There are 2 parts to a religious accommodation. The first is do you have a sincerely held belief, which actually has been yes more than people think. The second is can the service accommodate it without risking others or negatively impacting service. With the vaccine that part is what is getting denied. Not having it risks those around you and makes you non deployable from big AF perspective. The few approved are mostly people on terminal or teleworking prior to terminal.

Not saying it’s right or wrong but for SA.

[FLEA]

17 minutes ago, MCO said:

There are 2 parts to a religious accommodation. The first is do you have a sincerely held belief, which actually has been yes more than people think. The second is can the service accommodate it without risking others or negatively impacting service. With the vaccine that part is what is getting denied. Not having it risks those around you and makes you non deployable from big AF perspective. The few approved are mostly people on terminal or teleworking prior to terminal.

Not saying it’s right or wrong but for SA.

Some additional context, what really shot the DoD in the foot on these lawsuits was they did grant medical exemptions. So the law says they have to provide a reasonable accommodation to a religious issue unless no reasonable accommodation exist. The plaintiffs argued before the court that a reasonable accommodation did exist because the DoD didn't have the same concerns about deployment of mobility for medically exempted personal and they could simply accommodate religious members similarly. 

The DoD by and large never tried to deny a religious exemption based on the sincerity of the belief. In nearly every denial (at least everyone I've seen) the DoD recognized the belief as sincere. In fact the organizations that I've been following who are helping to litigate it have reviewed thousands of denials and in every case the religious convictions were agreed to be sincere. 

Because of that, it painted the DoD in a corner. Now they can no longer say the belief is not sincere, because they already agreed it was and new evidence hasn't been presented to say it wasn't. The DoD also can no longer say a reasonable accommodation does not exist because they did grant a reasonable accommodation to people who were medically waivered. What the courts are interested in and what the DoD is failing to make a case in is why would a medically exempt service member deserve an accomodation but a religious member doesn't. Unfortunately the only conclusion easy to reach with that is senior leadership in the DoD discriminated against religious members by failing to treat them on equal standing as those unable to take the vaccine for medical reasons. 

 

[Negatory]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:49 PM, Negatory said:

We’ll just have to wait and see on cases. I am certain we’ll hit 1.0M, although many of those cases won’t be tested. Probably see 600-700k confirmed cases a day is my bet, with 40-60% not detected due to either being asymptomatic or mild.

In the spirit of keeping up with the science, preliminary data used in studies shows that while Omicron is super contagious, it is significantly less bad from an individual outcome perspective. Maybe this will be a blessing to finally get everyone immunity, whether you want it or not.

https://mynorthwest.com/3289906/uw-modelers-project-3-billion-new-covid-19-cases-by-february/

“UW researchers said the omicron hospitalization rate is between 4 and 10% that of delta, and that the fatality rate is 1 to 3% that of delta.”

Also, rates like that - up to 10-20 times less likely to be hospitalized or 30-100 times less likely to die - make it almost false reporting to even call this disease COVID. Because it is not very similar to Delta.

Legitimately, if these estimates turn out to be true, it will be significantly less bad for an individual than the flu. Only question is, will the hospital system in America be able to deal with 60-140M people getting “the flu” in the next few months?

Hey @ViperMan, your quotes for me from 25 Dec onwards were trying to make it seem like I was insinuating the death rate of omicron was gonna be be 5-15% for certain portions of the population. Just wondering why you misrepresented my actual points on this forum? Is this a perception error because you aren’t actually reading what I’m saying? Or is it an execution error in that you’re arguing fallaciously?

Did you miss two days prior where I said exactly what you’re arguing I didn’t say?

Did you not understand that the estimates you quoted (5-15%) were in reference to historical data under an entirely different pretext? We were talking about what we would have done differently with foresight of historical data. The historical data - which is true - is for delta/previous variants.

How can I make my opinions more clear so that you can stop misrepresenting them?

I don’t need to engage in this echo chamber where you can only see it as simply you vs my entirely opposite views. I am glad that my predictions on 23 Dec (that the disease would have significantly lower hospitalizations and fatalities) based on scientific evidence (that I was the first to present on this forum) came true. I know you guys want to hate on people like me, pawnman, Prozac, etc. and find the bogeyman, but it’s not productive. I’m good not engaging with you in the future, as you’ve proven not to want to engage in a good faith discussion. Godspeed.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Negatory

[brickhistory]

[HeloDude]

5 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I think this whole vaccination thing is BS but people trying the religious route when it’s total crap really pisses me off. Totally undermines folks that have legitimate religious beliefs. 

When the government gets to decide what is a “sincerely held religious belief” and what is not, and who can have them/not have them…then we have problems.

I am anti-religious exemptions for anything when it comes to the government, and this includes vaccines. If an atheist doesn’t want a vaccine then that should hold no more/no less sway vs someone who doesn’t want one for personal religious reasons.

Edited February 18, 2022 by HeloDude

[ViperMan]

3 hours ago, Negatory said:

Hey @ViperMan, your quotes for me from 25 Dec onwards were trying to make it seem like I was insinuating the death rate of omicron was gonna be be 5-15% for certain portions of the population. Just wondering why you misrepresented my actual points on this forum? Is this a perception error because you aren’t actually reading what I’m saying? Or is it an execution error in that you’re arguing fallaciously?

What's up @Negatory. I guess it's a perception error, but you honestly came across like that. So, no, I'm not trying to misrepresent you. In our discussion (back then) it was pretty clear to me that what was being implied was that there was going to be mass death right around the corner. I stated that I did not buy that BS for a variety of reasons. Also, you could have, you know, responded with what you actually meant four days ago if I "misrepresented" you. Instead you waited until now to figure out that's not what you meant back then??? You can see how I'm (still) confused. How about you explain what you meant by 15% (or 30% as you quoted), and what this other pretext was. In any case, I'm not arguing fallaciously, and you are welcome to clarify.

If you had been context switching between Omicron infecting a million people a day and then back to vanilla COVID morting 5-15%, then I missed the fact that there were two separate and distinct points being made - so yeah, that's my perception problem. But I will admit that I went back and read the stuff from just prior to Christmas, and it is not clear that you were talking about two different bugs. That said, you did recognize that the data showed Omicron was highly infectious, but not as deadly - so I'll take that one.

Anyway, here's the big picture I take away from our previous conversation after having been removed from it for a while:

1. There is one group (you, et al) who are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the PTB re: COVID measures.
2. There's another group (includes me) who is done with the charade and all things "unserious."

I mean you have people that are fine with measures being taken that were known (or thought) to be ineffective simply as a means to "do" something (I'm one who thinks masks have a limited personal effect; zero societal effect). Many people, including me, think forcing people to do things for show is anti-American. That's where I'm coming from. And besides that philosophical point, I'll say it's worth a moment's consideration to think about the implication of having the perception that something works, even though it actually doesn't, and then implementing it as policy. Do you think those types of misconceptions will lead people to take more or less appropriate risks? What will then be the actual real-world outcome of that policy? More or less infection? Seems clear to me what the answer is, but yet...

On 12/30/2021 at 12:05 PM, Prozac said:

Wearing a mask on an airplane for instance. While I may find it slightly annoying, the real and yes, perceived, effects of wearing one are a small inconvenience if it means the airline industry can remain whole. Even if you believe it’s mostly theater, potting a piece of cloth over your face for a couple hours is a pretty “easy” measure.

Others accept at face value that "COVID" is "killing" 20x more Americans than in other nations. Apparently you need to be some kind of "expert" to notice that is an odd thing and to raise it as a question. Or perhaps this, the fact that in California (of all places) they held the Super Bowl mostly mask-less (https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2022/02/face-masks-were-handed-out-at-the-super-bowl-but-few-fans-wore-them.html). Where was the enforcement? Why was this acceptable? My bet is that it was cool because there was a lot of money involved in it for CA. I would like to be a fly on the wall during some of the conversations between NFL executives and the CA government (https://www.wtok.com/2022/01/05/nfl-looks-contingency-sites-super-bowl-amid-covid-19/).

Anyway, it was these sorts of arguments that were (and still are) being made. My point now is the same as what it was then: This is now mostly about signaling/control, Omicron wasn't (isn't) going to kill everyone, and it's time to stop panicking and go back to (actual) normal. Stop the fear-based arguments and justifications for normalizing restrictions, lack of freedom, and unquestioned acceptance of authority. We are creating a generation of young children who are scared shitless of COVID though they are not at risk whatsoever, and are going to grow up more neurotic than they already were going to be.

Edited February 18, 2022 by ViperMan